Falling pics 11/25/09

[tramp bushler]

Ya know I thought the 461 was like 78cc or some odd number...

besides I have a 90cc saw, the 461 is hands down faster in 30"- wood. Hard wood is a rarity here, that cotton wood has the consistency of balsa when green, a little like pine when dry. I'm limited more by chain speed then raw power. So why drag the extra 3-4 pounds of saw around for an extra pony I rarely need?

An 066/660 will go as fast as a 460/460 with an 8 tooth sprocket it will hold more rpm in the cut. Which means it will out cut it. The 660 weighs about 2 lbs more. . But, if your not all up highest production possible then the smaller saw is easier to pack around. And burn less gas.
But. If a guy is just going to go to work and cut a couple loads a day then the 460/461/372/576 /440 will be a great saw.
But like Bob and Sam ect. Where volume on the ground is what pays the bills then the 390 / 660/395 makes the most money. As long as a guy can keep up with them.

 

[HuskStihl]

Oh jeeze, they will be looking for pink bloomers next and start looking like Brad.

You shiftless bums get to work.

Thanks Randy. All this "why would I need this amount of unadulterated power and torque, it might scare baby birds" crap was getting on my nerves:jester:

 

[HuskStihl]

An 066/660 will go as fast as a 460/460 with an 8 tooth sprocket it will hold more rpm in the cut. Which means it will out cut it. The 660 weighs about 2 lbs more. . But, if your not all up highest production possible then the smaller saw is easier to pack around. And burn less gas.
But. If a guy is just going to go to work and cut a couple loads a day then the 460/461/372/576 /440 will be a great saw.
But like Bob and Sam ect. Where volume on the ground is what pays the bills then the 390 / 660/395 makes the most money. As long as a guy can keep up with them.

That's how I bushel:jester:

Sorry for being a ####, I just temporarily have Glen, Young Bob and Randy on my side. Like starting #### in a bar cause you brought ur friend Ray Lewis along as the designated driver:msp_biggrin:

 

[tramp bushler]

So, I looked it up. The 660 has the same size fuel tank as the 461 . Which all else considered . The 461 will run longer per tank than the 660 .
One of the many things I prefer about the 390 over the 660 is it runs longer on a tank of fuel. . In fact from my keeping track my 394 s ran the same # of minutes as the 066 Mags. But they had more snort. . Snort Snort Snort.

 

[tramp bushler]

Oh and the 461 is 76.5 cc. Same as the 460.

 

[OlympicYJ]

Allot of the guys up in forks will run 460's with 28's cause of the smaller timber they're in now. Allot of em run 660's and 32's. I think some were even runin 28's on the 660's. One cutter was running 362's in commercial thinning on steep ground cause he didn't want the weight and again smaller wood. I'm developing the opinion we are logging it to small these days. Forget wood quality, nobody hardley cares about that but from the operational point of view I'm liking a log around the 25" to 30" butt range. Just overall improvement in volume moved with less diesel burnt and less time.

 

[IcePick]

Right on Glen! You beat me to it.

I don't give a damn about what anyone says. If you want to make some money bushelin you've gotta run 90ccs and a long bar. That pretty much goes for any timber that has any size to it.

The rest of you boys can keep yer 70cc saws. That just leaves more timber for me to kill...

Starting realizing this pretty quick. my 460 with the 28'' bar just doesnt seem to have the little extra needed cutting capacity to slice through the bigger ones. Like I said, should have gotten a 660. lots of premature ejac....errr... popping and twisting cutting through some of these bigger hard maples with the 460.

 

[Trx250r180]

for those that have not run a 460 and a 461 side by side ,there is a noticeable difference in how they run ,my 461 and 660 are ported ,with a 32 inch bar buried i cant really tell much difference in power in the 2 saws i have,if anything i think the 461 sounds angrier cutting , the 660 has a noticeable edge in tourque over my 460 ,and it's ported also ,from what i hear mre and more 461 saws are popping up in the woods around here

 

[madhatte]

I'm developing the opinion we are logging it to small these days. Forget wood quality, nobody hardley cares about that but from the operational point of view I'm liking a log around the 25" to 30" butt range.

Funny story about that. A few years ago, we had a local guidance that had us marking only 18"-22" stems because we wanted the big ones to get bigger. Well, a seasonal crew finished marking a sale that should have come in at around 1.2MMBF but instead came in at only 300MBF. "WTF?" we asked... until we went out and looked at what was marked. Well, they had marked damn near every 18"-22" stem, but left all the bigger stuff. Turns out the stand was averaging 30" DBH. We re-marked it over the winter and got our projected volume... and quietly did away with that local guidance about 18"-22".

Also: I did an internship with Weyco in 1995 studying stem defects, particularly ramicorn branching and sinuousity. The results of the study were simple: you can grow 'em fast, sure, but wood quality will suffer. A 50-year rotation looks good on paper, but a 75- or 100-year rotation will produce far better ROI on a BF-per-acre basis, adjusted for both cull and mill waste. Sinuousity, especially, is a mill issue -- kiln-dry lumber with significant reaction wood and all you'll get is a twisted mess of semi-dimensional firewood.

 

[OlympicYJ]

Nate exactly what I would imagine. The DNR has some of the nicest timber. As far as private wood that I've seen I would say Green Diamond has pretty nice stuff in areas specifically the lower site areas. Now I haven't looked at a Port Blakely stand in a few years but I think they are behind some of the GD wood but again haven't looked at one for a long time.

I agree sinuosity can be grown out of the tree but for log quality I would like to see a slower growing stick because on your older wood you'll have nice strait grain but will still be cutting into that sinuosity. A slower growing seedling I feel is needed on high site ground and maybe the faster growing ones on the poorer sites to make better use of the inputs there. It's a double edged sword. Although on plantation wood the defect is allot more consistent whereas with natural it can be very variable.... If you are growing the smaller stuff CnS sized you have to have a modern mill to get the recovery. Technology has done some wonders on recovery. But I think were spending too much money out in the woods logging small timber. I think if landowners would go to longer rotation/bigger stick you would see profitability come up over all. Hey Good thing you replied this morning and I saw it. I'll text ya the contact info of that Prof that is doing the remote sensing stuff.

Wes

 

[bitzer]

On the 90cc vs. 70cc debate- when your saw is feeding your family and business you figure out pretty damn quick which one is making money.



I cut a lot of MFL jobs and typically they shoot for a 15 year rotation in hardwoods. I've cut some that haven't been cut in a long time and some that were cut more recently. Typically there is 3 to 4 stages or sizes of timber growing in these stands to keep the crop consistent. I think these jobs are hit and miss as far as quality of timber is concerned. It seems like I am I more often than not cutting the garbage of the stand instead of the high production high quality timber they are shooting for. I keep thinking, maybe next time I'll get these? I'm cutting a swamp right now and there is plenty of nice big soft maple that I just keep walkin by.

 

[treeslayer2003]

Bitzer, sounds like yer doing a lot of stand improvement cutting. surely ya get to cut some that have already had that done years ago? I know it hard but just remember it is nessasary. when you get on that realy nice piece, someone set it up years ago for this harvest.

 

[1270d]

We did a lot of cutting just like bitzer is doing. We also got to cut the stands again later. But then the forester our company had worked with for 25 plus years left and all those nice stands went to other crews.

 

[mdavlee]

Starting realizing this pretty quick. my 460 with the 28'' bar just doesnt seem to have the little extra needed cutting capacity to slice through the bigger ones. Like I said, should have gotten a 660. lots of premature ejac....errr... popping and twisting cutting through some of these bigger hard maples with the 460.

Port work can catch that up. Running a 28" a hot 70cc can pull it just as fast as a 90cc. A few of the 70cc saws will pull a 28 with an 8 pin.

 

[madhatte]

I agree sinuosity can be grown out of the tree but for log quality I would like to see a slower growing stick because on your older wood you'll have nice strait grain but will still be cutting into that sinuosity.

Some of the nicest second-growth I've seen has been on sites where a thinning cycle was missed; suppression can make some very nice grain after the crowns recede and the knots heal over. Hard sell to a planner, though. Smells too much like neglect at first thought.

 

[bitzer]

Bitzer, sounds like yer doing a lot of stand improvement cutting. surely ya get to cut some that have already had that done years ago? I know it hard but just remember it is nessasary. when you get on that realy nice piece, someone set it up years ago for this harvest.

Yeah I know. I have cut some decent stands it just gets old sometimes when your cutting the junk more often. That and going from a big timber, log only job to a small timber, pulp job is quite a shock to the system.

 

[bitzer]

We did a lot of cutting just like bitzer is doing. We also got to cut the stands again later. But then the forester our company had worked with for 25 plus years left and all those nice stands went to other crews.

That's kind of what I'm worried about, someone else cutting my old jobs. At least my forester is a younger guy and he is local. There are very few if any bids on the jobs he buys. There just aren't a lot of mills looking at em or they don't have loggers in the area to cut them. I think there are less and less hand cutters in this state every year. There is still plenty of big timber to be had though.

 

[twochains]

That's kind of what I'm worried about, someone else cutting my old jobs. At least my forester is a younger guy and he is local. There are very few if any bids on the jobs he buys. There just aren't a lot of mills looking at em or they don't have loggers in the area to cut them. I think there are less and less hand cutters in this state every year. There is still plenty of big timber to be had though.

That's the way it is here with bids also. My boss buys timber for (4) other private crews, most of his buys have little to no bids at all...esp. FS jobs.

 

[bitzer]

That's the way it is here with bids also. My boss buys timber for (4) other private crews, most of his buys have little to no bids at all...esp. FS jobs.

Well at least it keeps wood in front of us everyday!

 

[HuskStihl]

On the 90cc vs. 70cc debate- when your saw is feeding your family and business you figure out pretty damn quick which one is making money.

I play with saws more than work, and I generally advise people to run what they like, but one thing I have noticed about bigger saws:
Of course, I have way to much raw machismo to own a 70cc saw, but there's prolly almost a 2hp difference between the stock 385 and ported 394. I agree with the "smaller" men that with a sharp chain and the 28" there's not much difference in pine (I think that will change with the 8pin I'm putting on the 394 as soon as it breaks in some more). However as soon as that "fresh chain happy feeling" fades after an hour or so, the 394 doesn't lose nearly as much speed as the 385. I realize this prolly applies to amateurs more as you guys sharpen on the job. I bring both saws with me sharp and grab the second one when the first one gets dull. My role in this "debate" in both instigatorial and provocatorial roles is officially at an end