Fire

[SS396driver]

Ahhh yes, but no!!!! Saltwater will kill the vegetation and bring great harm to the wildlife which is about to roast!!!!!!! jmho OT

Fire is short term. Vegetation starts growing within weeks animals come back . Did you know sequoia trees drop seeds only when there has been a fire. So fire has been an part of the ecosystem in California for thousands of years
Introduce salt and it could take decades before anything returns .
They use salt on roads here and it does kill the vegetation on the road side small scale but it does kill.

 

[slowp]

The video guy points out something to think about. It's true. When you live near the ocean, there is a salty mist. You can taste it. Salt is already there. Near our part of the Pacific Ocean, there is shore pine growing right up to the edge of high tide. It's getting a dose of salt. It's there already.

 

[slowp]

A possible cause of the Palisades fire. Note how long it takes to investigate such things, unlike the work of the meme makers.

Might be fireworks

 

[slowp]

More international help. I've not read about the usual fire people who come from Australia. We sometimes exchange both ways.

More Help

 

[david newbie]

The 'City of Angels' has become the 'City of Crispy Critters' Totally preventable and totally a democrat caused issue. Has zero to do with climate change and everything to do with poor political management.

Far as Canada is concerned, if I was Canadian, I'd not be throwing stones at anyone in as much as you may become the 51st State.... I see many Canadians are in favor of just that. Understandable, you are taxed to death and have a healthcare system where you could very well expire just waiting to get to see a doctor.

Not some place I'd want to live at all.

I grew up in Los Angeles, during the 60s and 70s. We used to get occasional Santa Ana winds, but we also used to get rain in the winter. Way hotter and drier there than 50 years ago!

 

[Smitty Smithsonite]

Been away from this site for a while—I don’t do social media—but I look in here sometimes.

I’m a Colorado firefighter, and I retired 3 yrs ago from full-time saw work doing “fire mitigation,” removing fuel around homes to prep them for wildland fire. Others in my rural department deploy on fires all over the west. All this to say that we study fire behavior in this part of the country, study it and understand it quite well.

Slowp is correct, there’s no way to prevent or stop the kind of fires burning in LA. Only way that could happen is if every structure were concrete with a steel roof and every last bit of vegetation had been scraped from the ground in advance. When embers are driven by 80 mph winds, there’s no hope of doing anything better than getting residents out of the way.

The LA fires are being compared to the Marshall Fire that we had here in Boulder County, Dec. 30, 2021—look it up. Late morning there was a small shed on fire—pics & video from the highway. But 100 mph winds pushed embers so that fire whipped through several towns. Within about 12 hrs 1,000 structures were burned to the ground including a multi-story hotel. The miracle was that only two people died in that one.

You cannot put firefighters in front of such conflagration. Water pumped from several engines is great when you’re fighting one building or two on fire. But when each of those blazes is igniting every neighboring structure and sending an ember blizzard (the actual term we use, because it’s accurate) to every flammable thing within a mile . . . Besides propelling embers, the wind also preheats everything in its path, preparing it for ready ignition.

It’s pretty sad that this thing is being politicized. There’s nothing political about fire driven by 80 mph winds in dry country.

What IS political is the fact that NOTHING WAS DONE TO PREVENT said conflagration!!

Leftist policies of militant environmentalism, and protecting a damned FIELD MOUSE (among other "endangered" wildlife) seem to take precedent over human life in the 21st century. This was 100% preventable!!!

Why is it that only in the last 10 years have we seen fires rage to levels not seen before in history? Don't say "climate change" - that is total horseshit. It's the policies of those in charge of the state. They USED to have controlled burns. Now, because sensitive people cried to the people in charge, that is no longer done.

And why is it that some CA's electrical infrastructure was built OVER 100 years ago, igniting some of the fuel from the aforementioned idiotic policies? Again - back to militant environmentalism. The electric companies don't dare ask the powers that be permission to upgrade ($$$$ in permits, hoops, and environmental hurtles!!)

Pretty simple - remove the fuel, AVOID THE FIRE!! Why is this so difficult for people to understand???

 

[slowp]

What IS political is the fact that NOTHING WAS DONE TO PREVENT said conflagration!!

Leftist policies of militant environmentalism, and protecting a damned FIELD MOUSE (among other "endangered" wildlife) seem to take precedent over human life in the 21st century. This was 100% preventable!!!Pl

Why is it that only in the last 10 years have we seen fires rage to levels not seen before in history? Don't say "climate change" - that is total horseshit. It's the policies of those in charge of the state. They USED to have controlled burns. Now, because sensitive people cried to the people in charge, that is no longer done.

And why is it that some CA's electrical infrastructure was built OVER 100 years ago, igniting some of the fuel from the aforementioned idiotic policies? Again - back to militant environmentalism. The electric companies don't dare ask the powers that be permission to upgrade ($$$$ in permits, hoops, and environmental hurtles!!)

Pretty simple - remove the fuel, AVOID THE FIRE!! Why is this so difficult for people to understand???

Tell us which of the current fires have been caused by the electric wires? I haven't seen any mention of it in the reliable news.

We westerners like our ecosystems and do not want things to turn into the east coast. Blaming all this on a mouse is stupid. Not adding climate change--heating up hotter and longer hot seasons is stupid. Power companies running into "hurtles?" Californians correct me if I am wrong, but the main power company, at least in the north is PG&E. It is huge. It has shareholders. It is cheaper for them to not upgrade their lines. If they are found guilty of causing a fire, they jack up their rates to customers. When I lived in the third world of CA, they had a pole that was in a mudslide chute. No remedy was ever made. We lost power frequently but I imagine that was cheaper than moving the line or pole.

Some of us have lived long enough in an area to notice that the summers are hotter and drier. I guess if you go from indoors to car to indoors you wouldn't notice. Santa Anna season used to be in the Fall. Now we have this. Developers have built in areas that have no chance. It all adds up to what we have going now.
So, maybe you can research The Last Ten Years and let us know what to do. Specifics. First of all, it has been warmer and drier. Second we have more idiots who move out here and do stupid things that start fires. Thirdly, my old employer, the Forest Service, has been forced into a constant downsizing, a result of those tax cuts that folks want. There aren't the bodies or budgets available to do all the prescribed burning needed, or thinning. Logging has been cut back so those bodies aren't in the woods, and stands of timber aren't getting thinned like they should. In case you aren't familiar with things, loggers and forestry people carry fire tools and can take care of small starts and also notify fire folks of the location.

It's brush that's burning in CA though. That's what it does.

 

[slowp]

What IS political is the fact that NOTHING WAS DONE TO PREVENT said conflagration!!

Leftist policies of militant environmentalism, and protecting a damned FIELD MOUSE (among other "endangered" wildlife) seem to take precedent over human life in the 21st century. This was 100% preventable!!!

Why is it that only in the last 10 years have we seen fires rage to levels not seen before in history? Don't say "climate change" - that is total horseshit. It's the policies of those in charge of the state. They USED to have controlled burns. Now, because sensitive people cried to the people in charge, that is no longer done.

And why is it that some CA's electrical infrastructure was built OVER 100 years ago, igniting some of the fuel from the aforementioned idiotic policies? Again - back to militant environmentalism. The electric companies don't dare ask the powers that be permission to upgrade ($$$$ in permits, hoops, and environmental hurtles!!)

Pretty simple - remove the fuel, AVOID THE FIRE!! Why is this so difficult for people to understand???

Oh, and as far as removing fuel, we do need plants to hold the soil in place. It isn't simple at all.

 

[Blue Oaks]

The lawsuit claims the power lines started the Eaton Fire.

https://personalinjurylawcal.com/ea...5qaQM5v4Fqeg8yDewp1QmloJD0sBqRecaAoJgEALw_wcB

 

[SS396driver]

The video guy points out something to think about. It's true. When you live near the ocean, there is a salty mist. You can taste it. Salt is already there. Near our part of the Pacific Ocean, there is shore pine growing right up to the edge of high tide. It's getting a dose of salt. It's there already.

Salt spray is minuscule in comparison to dumping million of gallons of salt water on land . Spray salt will easily wash away in the rains . You live in a very wet area do you not? If this was true of the souther California area where the fires are we would not even be having this discussion
There are trees that grow in salty environments but they developed this ability over millions of years .
https://treejourney.com/trees-that-grow-near-salt-water-and-why-they-can/

 

[firekindler]

Salt in the ground renders it baron. It will leach into aquifers. If it was a good idea why don’t the fixed and rotory wing fire tankers use it ?

Using salt water to put out fires is never done on land maybe in boats but there’s no contamination concerns .
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...can-firefighters-use-ocean-water/77575501007/

That's not accurate:
This is at Big Sur in 2017; dipping out of the Pacific.

 

[firekindler]

In the extreme conditions existing currently, fuel reduction would not prevent the carnage: https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2315797120 . The wildfires transitioned to urban fires, carried structure to structure by wind borne embers. A dinky little camp fire could have the same result. What would work would be to harden the structures to resist ignition: https://wildfiretoday.com/2019/05/2...-on-structure-losses-during-2017-thomas-fire/ .
This quotes two of my main gurus on the subject: https://www.latimes.com/california/...-*****-los-angeles-blazes-amid-changing-times .
We know how to do it, and it works: https://anrcatalog.ucanr.edu/pdf/8393.pdf . Even without the enhanced measures in this paper, the vast majority of buildings that survived the Camp fire in Paradise were built after 2008, when California building codes were upgraded in terms of fire safety. The only question imho is whether to mandate upgrades through codes, or leave it up to individual home owners.

 

[Smitty Smithsonite]

If salt killed vegetation, here in MA we'd have brown strips up and down every single road in the state every spring ... which I have yet to see. Our roads get so much crap dumped on them so often every single winter that you can't hardly see the double-yellow lines half the time!

Tell us which of the current fires have been caused by the electric wires? I haven't seen any mention of it in the reliable news.

We westerners like our ecosystems and do not want things to turn into the east coast. Blaming all this on a mouse is stupid. Not adding climate change--heating up hotter and longer hot seasons is stupid. Power companies running into "hurtles?" Californians correct me if I am wrong, but the main power company, at least in the north is PG&E. It is huge. It has shareholders. It is cheaper for them to not upgrade their lines. If they are found guilty of causing a fire, they jack up their rates to customers. When I lived in the third world of CA, they had a pole that was in a mudslide chute. No remedy was ever made. We lost power frequently but I imagine that was cheaper than moving the line or pole.

Some of us have lived long enough in an area to notice that the summers are hotter and drier. I guess if you go from indoors to car to indoors you wouldn't notice. Santa Anna season used to be in the Fall. Now we have this. Developers have built in areas that have no chance. It all adds up to what we have going now.
So, maybe you can research The Last Ten Years and let us know what to do. Specifics. First of all, it has been warmer and drier. Second we have more idiots who move out here and do stupid things that start fires. Thirdly, my old employer, the Forest Service, has been forced into a constant downsizing, a result of those tax cuts that folks want. There aren't the bodies or budgets available to do all the prescribed burning needed, or thinning. Logging has been cut back so those bodies aren't in the woods, and stands of timber aren't getting thinned like they should. In case you aren't familiar with things, loggers and forestry people carry fire tools and can take care of small starts and also notify fire folks of the location.

It's brush that's burning in CA though. That's what it does.

Exactly NOWHERE did I say the CURRENT fires were started by wires. In fact, it was started by an ILLEGAL with a torch this time! Had there not been leftist policies in place, the fire would have hardly got started and would've been easily put out quickly before ANY loss of life or property.

No point in discussing this further - you seem to have your mind made up, and the left can do no wrong! The fact remains they are ONE HUNDRED PERCENT responsible for this fire in EVERY way. The firestarter was an ILLEGAL, who came unchecked over our wide-open southern border. The fire took off because idiotic policies failed to clean up the fuel - the dead crap that piles up year after year after year! Why aren't there any controlled burns anymore? THEY WORK EXCELLENT!! Did you see where this current fire stopped dead to the northwest? That was because last year's fire burned all the fuel!!

Oh, and as far as removing fuel, we do need plants to hold the soil in place. It isn't simple at all.

Dude ... seriously? WTF!! You're smarter than this. The DEAD vegetation in dry areas needs to be removed, either by hand or by controlled burns! It's been done that way for decades until leftism took over CA ... and now we have people dead and entire cities burned to the ground!!

 

[SS396driver]

That's not accurate: View attachment 1233452
This is at Big Sur in 2017; dipping out of the Pacific.

We were talking about pumping sea water into the fire infrastructure as in all the fire hydrants. The preferred source for water is lakes rivers and reservoirs .

 

[SS396driver]

If salt killed vegetation, here in MA we'd have brown strips up and down every single road in the state every spring ... which I have yet to see. Our roads get so much crap dumped on them so often every single winter that you can't hardly see the double-yellow lines half the time!

I see it all the time in spring here . But you also have to take into account we get a lot more precipitation than they do in California . And the salt is used to clear snow and ice so it diluted right from the start . And the amount used to clear roads is minuscule compared to trying to put out a forest fire with sea water
http://www.climatehubs.usda.gov/hub...-intrusion-growing-threat-coastal-agriculture

 

[chuckwood]

You apparently don't know much about wildfires. I do not see anything politcal about 100 mph wind gusts--hell, I've seen, in person how fire is pushed by a mere 50mph wind. You no way no how can put people in front of such a fire. Airtankers cannot fly in all conditions, nor helicopters. It isn't like the TV shows and movies.

On another site, somebody made the comparison with the firestorm of Tokyo during WWII. The fire makes it's own weather, and it's Katy Bar The Door Time or for those of you who are movie fans, Monty Python's Run Away, Run Away. You cannot put out a firestorm without cooperation from The Weather. Not Republicans, not Democrats, you need the right weather. Get that through your thick head. Thay do not sacrifice lives for property in the fire fighting realm. That's the cardinal rule. Safety.

Gawd, I really wish you couch shots would travel to SoCal and show them how it's done, right? It's only a few hours away by plane. Go for it.

My mom was a teenager in Germany during WWII and experienced a firestorm after an air raid first hand, it was one of her more bizarre war stories. She was luckily just on the outside edge of the storm but said that people were reportedly running out of residential buildings holding cooking pots on their heads for protection against flaming debris that was raining down everywhere. The wind was very noticeably blowing towards the center of the burning city, the fire was sucking in air in the same way a wood heater does.

There's only one way to really prevent giant brush/forest fires and that's to clear out all the flammable underbrush. Here in TN some years ago the city of Gatlinburg next to the Smokies park was badly burned in a firestorm and it made national news and a number of people died and many many millions of dollars worth of buildings burnt to the ground. People living in surrounding hills and visitors in vacation homes had to flee for their lives. Some posted some really scary you tube videos of literally driving through the middle of a forest fire. I was outside that day and it had been very dry for a long time and we had a fierce wind that day. I had a feeling something was going to burn somewhere around here but I had no idea it was to be Gatlinburg. Twice as a youngster camping with a bunch of boys we let a campfire get out of control in windy conditions and we were running around all over the place frantically stomping the fire out. It seems nobody in charge in Ca has ever gone camping and/or experienced or had seen something like this and how easy it is to start a forest fire. Some years ago I was sawing some very dry pine and a spark from my saw muffler with no screen managed to set the sawdust on fire. Anything can serve to light the fuse - even a flaming cigarette butt tossed out a car window can do it under the right conditions. Southern Ca was a dry and loaded tinderbox just waiting for the inevitable spark. Insurance companies were *very* aware of the extreme dangers so they cancelled insurance policies.

Ca had plenty of money available to hire crews to clear out brush but chose to spend the money instead on utter nonsense. Another option would have been to let goats run around wild all over those hills and turn the brush into non flammable goat poop. But we can't have wild goats running around all over the place in those fancy areas can we?

Goats and sheep grazing around in ancient Palestine, Lebanon, Syria etc. along with humans cutting down trees to build cities and ships changed forever the landscape and the climate of the area. 3000 years ago Israel was the land of milk and honey. Not anymore, a lot of it is now desert due to countless centuries of sheep and goat grazing. Goats can and would do the job in Ca - but it seems that rich and progressive people just can't have goats ruining their manicured and tidy lawns. So instead it's burn baby burn!

 

[ATpro]

We were talking about pumping sea water into the fire infrastructure as in all the fire hydrants. The preferred source for water is lakes rivers and reservoirs .

We have a problem with vegetation and tree kills after a hurricane storm surge,. salt water is killer.

 

[JimR]

Gee, I've been there, even set up plans for doing control burns and set out the perimeters for the burn, like preparation, wind speed, direction, humidity needed, location, and even an environmental impact statement. When those conditions exists it is the time to do the burn. They said they would have to get this plan approved and it may take 2 or 3 years.

That plan work sounds about right for California. They can't do control burns without spending millions of dollars on studies and environmental issues. But they can allow people to shat on the sidewalks and urinate in public.

 

[JimR]

Fire is short term. Vegetation starts growing within weeks animals come back . Did you know sequoia trees drop seeds only when there has been a fire. So fire has been an part of the ecosystem in California for thousands of years
Introduce salt and it could take decades before anything returns .
They use salt on roads here and it does kill the vegetation on the road side small scale but it does kill.

Road salt and other snow melting chemicals wiped out most of the Sugar Maples in my town.

 

[farfromiowa]

Government restriction??? Not getting on your case Bud, but they are the ones that allow this kinda nonsense building to take place. More homes, more tax dollars. Talk to any fire marshal about what they think of these sub-divisions with 10foot setbacks. It's their biggest worry about what a fire would do to those places. Heck in a county just north of Seattle they've gone to the county commissioners with their concerns, and it just falls on deaf ears. OK, sorry enough ranting.

I bet you are refering to the building going on in Whatcom conuty?