Sidecarflip
Addicted to ArboristSite
Nothing, of course but that isn't relevant to the commenter anyway.
Fire
- Thread starter Gologit
- Start date
Help Support Arborist Forum:
You apparently don't know much about wildfires. I do not see anything politcal about 100 mph wind gusts--hell, I've seen, in person how fire is pushed by a mere 50mph wind. You no way no how can put people in front of such a fire. Airtankers cannot fly in all conditions, nor helicopters. It isn't like the TV shows and movies.
On another site, somebody made the comparison with the firestorm of Tokyo during WWII. The fire makes it's own weather, and it's Katy Bar The Door Time or for those of you who are movie fans, Monty Python's Run Away, Run Away. You cannot put out a firestorm without cooperation from The Weather. Not Republicans, not Democrats, you need the right weather. Get that through your thick head. Thay do not sacrifice lives for property in the fire fighting realm. That's the cardinal rule. Safety.
Gawd, I really wish you couch shots would travel to SoCal and show them how it's done, right? It's only a few hours away by plane. Go for it.
Gee, I've been there, even set up plans for doing control burns and set out the perimeters for the burn, like preparation, wind speed, direction, humidity needed, location, and even an environmental impact statement. When those conditions exists it is the time to do the burn. They said they would have to get this plan approved and it may take 2 or 3 years.
Yup. Welcome to the Dim reality…stupidity.
Good. We have enough idiots already.
Well, good for you. Now what about all the couch shots on here?
I've only been to somewhere in Orange County once on a fire crew. The brush is pretty impressive--thick, tall, and flammable. We weren't in a town. Spent a night on a ridge that looked way down to what some of the guys thought might be Ft Pendleton. Had a turkey sandwich for Thanksgiving there.
Did I mention how thick the brush that loves to burn is? Add ignition and a high wind and all the fire hydrants in the world might produce a little steam.
And yeah, we west coastians have a lot of paperwork and planning to go through. It's the law. A good portion of that law comes from Washington the DC and is passed by Congress, who really are more interested in creating havoc, rather taking on real life troubles.
As for the climate? You bet. We PNWers who have lived here for most of our lives definitely notice that the winters aren't as cold, or snowy and the summers are much hotter, with 100 degree days now lasting for weeks instead of just a few days. That's on the east side of the mountains. The west side is also hotter and drier. I guess if you spend all your time in front of a computer screen only to go outside to walk to your vehicle, you might argue against this.
Looking at LA from over here in UK, there seems to be an awful lot of water out there in the sea close by. Surely it is not beyond the famous American Knowhow to create a massive set of water pumps out at sea for these eventualities?
Yes you put out fires but now the ground is saturated with salt . Ever see what happens to areas that flood with sea water ? The vegetation dies and doesn’t come back for a long period of time
What is worse, a bit of salt or complete destruction of all you have built and your collections, your artworks and maybe members of your family and friends?
Salt water couldn't be any worse than the chemical fire retardant they dump, can it?
Salt in the ground renders it baron. It will leach into aquifers. If it was a good idea why don’t the fixed and rotory wing fire tankers use it ?
Using salt water to put out fires is never done on land maybe in boats but there’s no contamination concerns .
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...can-firefighters-use-ocean-water/77575501007/
Using salt water to put out fires is never done on land maybe in boats but there’s no contamination concerns .
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...can-firefighters-use-ocean-water/77575501007/
Yes it can be .
Ever pump salt water ? It ruins equipment in short order . It would be devastating to fire equipment
Like I said on boats it’s used . You have a small amount of equipment used at a given time . If you were to equip all fire trucks and related infrastructure to use salt water in a major city it would be 100s of billions of dollars . Wide scale use of salt water isn’t an option because of the contamination . Do they use fire boats on fires yes they do but from rivers or lakes . Most of the fire boats in fire departments are used in fresh water not the ocean unless fighting a ship fire .
Because of constant flooding with salt water
https://nypost.com/2024/03/23/us-ne...s-to-be-cut-down-for-tidal-basin-restoration/
https://nypost.com/2024/03/23/us-ne...s-to-be-cut-down-for-tidal-basin-restoration/
All good and well, but I don't think anybody thinks about using salty water. Pumps are pumps and also I wouldn't want to put ocean water in a spendy engine. (engine is a fire truck)
The fire retardant contents have been studied and tweaked to make it fairly earth friendly. It is still claimed to be toxic by The Usual Suspects and there have been attempts to sue over the use. They've dumped it on orchards, wheat fields, etc. and people. On one fire, saw a yarder heavily coated in red--the color of retardant. Houses have been hit when loads have to be jettisoned during a sketchy takeoff--I think there was a settlement for that one. That was a long time ago.
Like I said, water doesn't do much good in the big picture when the wind is blowing and fuels are extremely dry. You can hit the hotspots on the sides, flank the fire, if it is determined to be safe for the crews. Safety matters more than buildings.
The wind pushed flames, heading up the hill will have enough heat to cause any moisture to evaporate. Fire likes to run uphill, heating and drying out vegetation above, and spewing ash and embers to start spot fires. You don't want to get caught between the main fire and the spot fires. The brush that you see in pictures from a distance is high, thick and extremely difficult to walk through. Our crew was made fun of, but we prevailed, because we demanded chainsaws to cut line through the brush. We were told that You PNW crews can't do a thing unless you have a chainsaw. Well, so what? Once we had saws, we made progress.
I am wrong about salt water. Here's an excellent explanation about water availability and why water pressure decreases. Stick to the end and he'll also talk about wind and heat.
Been away from this site for a while—I don’t do social media—but I look in here sometimes.
I’m a Colorado firefighter, and I retired 3 yrs ago from full-time saw work doing “fire mitigation,” removing fuel around homes to prep them for wildland fire. Others in my rural department deploy on fires all over the west. All this to say that we study fire behavior in this part of the country, study it and understand it quite well.
Slowp is correct, there’s no way to prevent or stop the kind of fires burning in LA. Only way that could happen is if every structure were concrete with a steel roof and every last bit of vegetation had been scraped from the ground in advance. When embers are driven by 80 mph winds, there’s no hope of doing anything better than getting residents out of the way.
The LA fires are being compared to the Marshall Fire that we had here in Boulder County, Dec. 30, 2021—look it up. Late morning there was a small shed on fire—pics & video from the highway. But 100 mph winds pushed embers so that fire whipped through several towns. Within about 12 hrs 1,000 structures were burned to the ground including a multi-story hotel. The miracle was that only two people died in that one.
You cannot put firefighters in front of such conflagration. Water pumped from several engines is great when you’re fighting one building or two on fire. But when each of those blazes is igniting every neighboring structure and sending an ember blizzard (the actual term we use, because it’s accurate) to every flammable thing within a mile . . . Besides propelling embers, the wind also preheats everything in its path, preparing it for ready ignition.
It’s pretty sad that this thing is being politicized. There’s nothing political about fire driven by 80 mph winds in dry country.
I’m a Colorado firefighter, and I retired 3 yrs ago from full-time saw work doing “fire mitigation,” removing fuel around homes to prep them for wildland fire. Others in my rural department deploy on fires all over the west. All this to say that we study fire behavior in this part of the country, study it and understand it quite well.
Slowp is correct, there’s no way to prevent or stop the kind of fires burning in LA. Only way that could happen is if every structure were concrete with a steel roof and every last bit of vegetation had been scraped from the ground in advance. When embers are driven by 80 mph winds, there’s no hope of doing anything better than getting residents out of the way.
The LA fires are being compared to the Marshall Fire that we had here in Boulder County, Dec. 30, 2021—look it up. Late morning there was a small shed on fire—pics & video from the highway. But 100 mph winds pushed embers so that fire whipped through several towns. Within about 12 hrs 1,000 structures were burned to the ground including a multi-story hotel. The miracle was that only two people died in that one.
You cannot put firefighters in front of such conflagration. Water pumped from several engines is great when you’re fighting one building or two on fire. But when each of those blazes is igniting every neighboring structure and sending an ember blizzard (the actual term we use, because it’s accurate) to every flammable thing within a mile . . . Besides propelling embers, the wind also preheats everything in its path, preparing it for ready ignition.
It’s pretty sad that this thing is being politicized. There’s nothing political about fire driven by 80 mph winds in dry country.
Ahhh yes, but no!!!! Saltwater will kill the vegetation and bring great harm to the wildlife which is about to roast!!!!!!! jmho
OTSimilar threads
