Fire

[norbert77]

Anybody who insists that salt kills vegetation, has never lived in the rust belt of North America. Millions of pounds of salt are dumped on the side of the road and yet grass and weeds grow happily. I have clearly taken old water softener salt and dumped it on a pathway to kill the weeds growing between patio stones, and I cannot kill the darn things. I'm sure some vegetation is pH sensitive but for most, a little salt doesn't hurt it. Most people echoing that salt destroys pumps, again never had a snowblower or a car in the northern states, it's not instantaneous like a drop of salt just automatically rust all metal. Frustrating how many people just take a week government excuse and run with it as if it was gospel

 

[SS396driver]

Anybody who insists that salt kills vegetation, has never lived in the rust belt of North America. Millions of pounds of salt are dumped on the side of the road and yet grass and weeds grow happily. I have clearly taken old water softener salt and dumped it on a pathway to kill the weeds growing between patio stones, and I cannot kill the darn things. I'm sure some vegetation is pH sensitive but for most, a little salt doesn't hurt it. Most people echoing that salt destroys pumps, again never had a snowblower or a car in the northern states, it's not instantaneous like a drop of salt just automatically rust all metal. Frustrating how many people just take a week government excuse and run with it as if it was gospel

https://www.evergreenseeds.com/how-to-salt-the-earth-so-nothing-grows/
https://www.thespruce.com/killing-weeds-with-salt-5080243
https://gardenine.com/killing-weeds-with-salt/

Just a few . My wife uses salt to kill weeds and grass all the time

Ever have a boat on the sound ? We did when we lived on Long Island . Corrosion of bilge pumps was a constant challenge.
Snowblowers don’t deal with large amounts of salt . They clear driveways and sidewalks . We’re talking about constant use of salt water not occasionally. If it was a good idea there would be water draw pipes on every coast for pumpers to take salt water . Ever see one ? I do however see draw pipes in lakes streams and other fresh water sources

Living in the rust belt you’ve seen the damage to infrastructure like bridges guardrails and cars done by salt

Never said it was instantaneous but if you were to use it in fire fighting systems like hydrants and the related piping they wouldn’t last long

 

[SS396driver]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ornia-fire-ocean-water-debunked-b2679039.html

Another reason not to use salt water
https://openlab.citytech.cuny.edu/h...-salt-seeps-sometimes-the-manhole-covers-fly/

 

[slowp]

Super Scooper. Guess this can't suck up a happy snorkler and then dump them on the fire like the "legend" says.

It was one of these that hit a drone.

 

[CJ1]

Ever pump salt water ? It ruins equipment in short order . It would be devastating to fire equipment

Actually, yes all the time. I build pumping systems for the oilfields and road commissions in Northern Michigan. The salt water we use for dust control on our roads and pumped out of wells and back into wells for disposal can weigh up to 14lbs per gallon sea water is 8.57 per gallon and fresh is 8.33 for comparison. We use heavy brine in all our pumps that stay outside to keep from freezing. Yes it is corrosive but nothing that can't be fixed by flushing with freshwater or using the proper materials for extended contact with wetted parts. As far as sea water it would not even be a concern to me as the salt concentration is so low, just flush the equipment out when done. As far as it killing vegetation? When they use 10 to 11lb brine for dust control it turns the weeds brown that it directly hits then they come right back in a few weeks. With all the salt and now brine that the road commissions use for both ice and dust control on our roads you would figure everything would be dead in the ditches. NOPE just the opposite, they have to cut the right of ways more because of the minerals or whatever that the plants like causing everything to grow better. So anyone worried about damaging a few plants, it will not be a issue. Especially vs fire or allowing someone to get burned or die. CJ

 

[Blue Oaks]

That plan work sounds about right for California. They can't do control burns without spending millions of dollars on studies and environmental issues. But they can allow people to shat on the sidewalks and urinate in public.

Do you have any evidence to back up these claims? Or are you just talking out your ass? We had a 160 acre prescribed burn less than a half mile from my house last summer and they didn't spend "millions of dollars on studies and environmental issues."

 

[slowp]

My mom was a teenager in Germany during WWII and experienced a firestorm after an air raid first hand, it was one of her more bizarre war stories. She was luckily just on the outside edge of the storm but said that people were reportedly running out of residential buildings holding cooking pots on their heads for protection against flaming debris that was raining down everywhere. The wind was very noticeably blowing towards the center of the burning city, the fire was sucking in air in the same way a wood heater does.

There's only one way to really prevent giant brush/forest fires and that's to clear out all the flammable underbrush. Here in TN some years ago the city of Gatlinburg next to the Smokies park was badly burned in a firestorm and it made national news and a number of people died and many many millions of dollars worth of buildings burnt to the ground. People living in surrounding hills and visitors in vacation homes had to flee for their lives. Some posted some really scary you tube videos of literally driving through the middle of a forest fire. I was outside that day and it had been very dry for a long time and we had a fierce wind that day. I had a feeling something was going to burn somewhere around here but I had no idea it was to be Gatlinburg. Twice as a youngster camping with a bunch of boys we let a campfire get out of control in windy conditions and we were running around all over the place frantically stomping the fire out. It seems nobody in charge in Ca has ever gone camping and/or experienced or had seen something like this and how easy it is to start a forest fire. Some years ago I was sawing some very dry pine and a spark from my saw muffler with no screen managed to set the sawdust on fire. Anything can serve to light the fuse - even a flaming cigarette butt tossed out a car window can do it under the right conditions. Southern Ca was a dry and loaded tinderbox just waiting for the inevitable spark. Insurance companies were *very* aware of the extreme dangers so they cancelled insurance policies.

Ca had plenty of money available to hire crews to clear out brush but chose to spend the money instead on utter nonsense. Another option would have been to let goats run around wild all over those hills and turn the brush into non flammable goat poop. But we can't have wild goats running around all over the place in those fancy areas can we?

Goats and sheep grazing around in ancient Palestine, Lebanon, Syria etc. along with humans cutting down trees to build cities and ships changed forever the landscape and the climate of the area. 3000 years ago Israel was the land of milk and honey. Not anymore, a lot of it is now desert due to countless centuries of sheep and goat grazing. Goats can and would do the job in Ca - but it seems that rich and progressive people just can't have goats ruining their manicured and tidy lawns. So instead it's burn baby burn!

The part of SoCal that I ended up in, on a fire crew, didn't have a lot of dead brush. It had over 6 foot tall some kind of manzanita? that was made to burn. It's a hard concept to grasp, but the green vegetation is designed by Mother Nature to burn. From what I've been told, the chemical makeup of the vegetation is quite flammable. It gets so thick it is very difficult to walk through. Then we have the topography, which has natural chimneys for fire to run up. With the Santa Anna winds, the fire was actually running down the hills as those winds come out of the east, but it still was unstoppable.

The main point is that nothing can stop a firestorm like happened, except for Mother Nature. You go to a safe place and wait for the weather to turn favorable.
https://ucanr.edu/sites/safelandscapes/fire_in_southern_california_ecosystems/
What nonsense was money spent on?

 

[slowp]

Controlled burns aren't that easy to do either. WEATHER has to be just so. FUEL MOISTURE has to be in the right range. Then air pollution considerations have to be taken into account.

Burns don't always stay controlled. When we burned entire units--broadcast burns after logging to clear out slash for replanting, we were often chasing spot fires in the dark.

Then most people don't want to suck smoke although more are coming around. Just like many on here, they don't trust government agencies.

Politicians have not been funneling enough money for burning. You folks don't want to pay taxes. Taxes pay for activities like burning....

Like most of land management, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Meanwhile, things are going to burn. We just hope it isn't in the areas we live in. Perhaps Michigan can catch fire this summer? It's flat so might be easier to deal with.

 

[SS396driver]

Actually, yes all the time. I build pumping systems for the oilfields and road commissions in Northern Michigan. The salt water we use for dust control on our roads and pumped out of wells and back into wells for disposal can weigh up to 14lbs per gallon sea water is 8.57 per gallon and fresh is 8.33 for comparison. We use heavy brine in all our pumps that stay outside to keep from freezing. Yes it is corrosive but nothing that can't be fixed by flushing with freshwater or using the proper materials for extended contact with wetted parts. As far as sea water it would not even be a concern to me as the salt concentration is so low, just flush the equipment out when done. As far as it killing vegetation? When they use 10 to 11lb brine for dust control it turns the weeds brown that it directly hits then they come right back in a few weeks. With all the salt and now brine that the road commissions use for both ice and dust control on our roads you would figure everything would be dead in the ditches. NOPE just the opposite, they have to cut the right of ways more because of the minerals or whatever that the plants like causing everything to grow better. So anyone worried about damaging a few plants, it will not be a issue. Especially vs fire or allowing someone to get burned or die. CJ

Here they pretty much all but banned rick salt use on roads. Seems it was leaching into the NYC water shed which is where I live . My roads look like dirt roads in winter and spring .

Still they don’t want to use sea water to fight fires as been said by California fire . We both live in areas that get more rain than the arid parts of California ever does . The salt would stay in the ground far longer than around here. Yes salt is used for dust control even at the concentrations you’re talking about but I doubt you are dumping millions of gallons at a time on the roads .

So your saying it economically feasible for them to flush out all the mains with fresh water after putting out the fire . This whole conversation started around pumping sea water into the fire hydrant system to fight the fires .

 

[chuckwood]

The part of SoCal that I ended up in, on a fire crew, didn't have a lot of dead brush. It had over 6 foot tall some kind of manzanita? that was made to burn. It's a hard concept to grasp, but the green vegetation is designed by Mother Nature to burn. From what I've been told, the chemical makeup of the vegetation is quite flammable. It gets so thick it is very difficult to walk through. Then we have the topography, which has natural chimneys for fire to run up. With the Santa Anna winds, the fire was actually running down the hills as those winds come out of the east, but it still was unstoppable.


What nonsense was money spent on?

About the nonsense, that reply would have to be posted on the political forum, not here. Suffice it to say it's the sort of nonsense that might well lead to the ultimate extinction of the Democrat party. People will walk away from the D party and it will go the way the Whigs did in the 1800's.

Flammable Eucalyptus trees and "manzanita?" type trees can be easily cleared out and removed by large crews with chainsaws and other landscaping equipment and machinery. Cut all those flammable trees down, run them all through brush chippers, pile the chips up someplace where they can decay safely, and maybe sell the remains for garden mulch or compost. Or use the flammable wood chips as fuel. We once had a big lumber mill around here in the early 1900's that used all their sawdust and wood scrap byproduct to help power a steam engine that ran the milling machines. Today it wouldn't be too hard to build a wood chip fueled steam engine that's hooked up to an electrical generator. Use those flammable chips to make power instead of using nat gas. There are all sorts of practical solutions to the flammable tree issues.