Fire

[old CB]

All well and good on flat ground, and with a wad of money. Have you seen the terrain in the west? The brush in the populated areas is growing where houses weren't built, likely due to topography--steep ravines. Then after you take all the vegetation off, what are your plans to maintain slope stability? Not to mention people who will do hand labor. The current labor force is likely to be decimated soon. You got what you wanted on that.

Don't know about how much natural gas CA uses for power. We send them a bit from our dams, and they have some big solar projects in the desert. This would be a good time to add rooftop solar during the rebuilding process. I imagine the power company would not want that option.

There's a book out there somewhere that I read a few years ago. I thought it was by John McPhee, but none of the titles fit and I don't think it was Assembling California. The book goes into detail about the geology of SoCal,,how neighborhoods are built on landslides, areas that have had flash floods, earthquakes, etc. and some of the mitigation measures being tried. Might be a good one for people to read and get an idea of the scope of things. But dammit! I can't remember the title. Maybe it was Assembling California? Or was it the one about attempts to tame nature?

What you're referring to is "Los Angeles Against the Mountains," which is one of three works collected in John McPhee's book, The Control of Nature. (That book is a nonfiction classic, the title pointedly ironic, since no one can control nature.)

"LA against the mountains" details what happens when fire, which nature occasionally sparks in the Santa Ana mountains, burns the brush clean off those steep slopes & ravines. Then, when rain does come--as it must--the denuded ground is primed for sliding downhill in breathtaking ways. Pretty spooky reading about the guy whose family winds up pinned by landslide mud up to their necks inside their house expecting to die. He was a developer, had built his home like a concrete bunker, knowing the danger of his situation. They survived, but just barely.

To whoever thinks "they just need to do this . . . or that" to prevent environmental disaster around LA--it's worth reading "LA Against the Mountains" to learn the extraordinary measures that have been put in place, for decades now. But no matter what you do, you can't prevent or mitigate against every disaster.

 

[SS396driver]

We don't ban salt here, we use it to save lives and make roads drivable. Not really a choice for most people. And no the salt is not diluted. The brine used on the roads is just for dust control, not trying to save lives or stop Billions of dollars in damage. The little bit of salt in sea water would not cost billions of dollars to flush out of the water system. If it is a viable solution to help fight the fires and save lives, why wouldn't you do it? What is a life worth? CJ

The use of salt is severely restricted where I live because of the NYC reservoir system that supplies 100% of NYC drinking water
You talking about every main and house would need to be flushed what happens with the water in high rise buildings that is stored at the upper floors or roof . Never said billions but it would be costly . How much would it cost to separate the fire hydrant system from the fresh water mains ? That would most likely be billions of dollars .

And then when it does rain where does that salt go . Rivers, streams and reservoirs . The expense of using sea water would last years and then what happens this summer douse everything with salt again for the major wildfire.

 

[JimR]

Very sure. I'm in the Volunteer Fire Department that the prescribed burn occurred in.

All your quotes and links you posted seem to be about a different topic.

The links that I posted are direct money spent for forest management from what I read. Just look at what this money was spent for. The Newsweek article speaks about Newsum's cuts.

 

[Blue Oaks]

The links that I posted are direct money spent for forest management from what I read. Just look at what this money was spent for. The Newsweek article speaks about Newsum's cuts.

Right. I thought you were going to attempt to justify your comment that you can't have a controlled burn without spending millions.

 

[slowp]

What you're referring to is "Los Angeles Against the Mountains," which is one of three works collected in John McPhee's book, The Control of Nature. (That book is a nonfiction classic, the title pointedly ironic, since no one can control nature.)

"LA against the mountains" details what happens when fire, which nature occasionally sparks in the Santa Ana mountains, burns the brush clean off those steep slopes & ravines. Then, when rain does come--as it must--the denuded ground is primed for sliding downhill in breathtaking ways. Pretty spooky reading about the guy whose family winds up pinned by landslide mud up to their necks inside their house expecting to die. He was a developer, had built his home like a concrete bunker, knowing the danger of his situation. They survived, but just barely.

To whoever thinks "they just need to do this . . . or that" to prevent environmental disaster around LA--it's worth reading "LA Against the Mountains" to learn the extraordinary measures that have been put in place, for decades now. But no matter what you do, you can't prevent or mitigate against every disaster.

Thanks. I knew I'd read it, but I thought it was a different title.

 

[slowp]

An article about brush control. I assume that the grass specied that would invade might be cheatgrass?

https://www.latimes.com/environment...-helped-slow-the-spread-of-the-palisades-fire

 

[JimR]

Right. I thought you were going to attempt to justify your comment that you can't have a controlled burn without spending millions.

It is not about the cost for a controlled burn. It is the cost for everything involved beforehand in order to have that controlled burn. Look at the list of expenses and how many different boards were needed to do this. Your own fire dept. could have come up with a plan that would have cost to do. Instead California spends many millions to decide what needs to be done. That is my point.

 

[chuckwood]

It is not about the cost for a controlled burn. It is the cost for everything involved beforehand in order to have that controlled burn. Look at the list of expenses and how many different boards were needed to do this. Your own fire dept. could have come up with a plan that would have cost to do. Instead California spends many millions to decide what needs to be done. That is my point.

I was watching some live LA fire videos on you tube last night and saw some vids of large fire crews out working with dozens of guys in helmets and chaps cutting down trees and hauling off brush to make fire breaks. If it's suddenly a good idea to do this now - why wasn't it done months or years ago? I seems somebody in authority was allowed to bypass the "deciding what needs to be done" process. Instead of sitting around trying to decide - they're now just going out and doing it.

 

[ATpro]

An article about brush control. I assume that the grass specied that would invade might be cheatgrass?

The problem I saw when we went out there back in the 90s was they were building all over hill sides and hill tops and I know by now it has to be way more. Not much one can do in those hills. It is better with the brush clearing to try steering a fire with planning for your defense. For us that is easy, fire brakes, backfires and such. We drive the fire the way we want it to go. All fires need fuel, provide the fuel and the fire will follow. It's not that easy in parts of Cal,

 

[chuckwood]

What you're referring to is "Los Angeles Against the Mountains," which is one of three works collected in John McPhee's book, The Control of Nature. (That book is a nonfiction classic, the title pointedly ironic, since no one can control nature.)

"LA against the mountains" details what happens when fire, which nature occasionally sparks in the Santa Ana mountains, burns the brush clean off those steep slopes & ravines. Then, when rain does come--as it must--the denuded ground is primed for sliding downhill in breathtaking ways. Pretty spooky reading about the guy whose family winds up pinned by landslide mud up to their necks inside their house expecting to die. He was a developer, had built his home like a concrete bunker, knowing the danger of his situation. They survived, but just barely.

To whoever thinks "they just need to do this . . . or that" to prevent environmental disaster around LA--it's worth reading "LA Against the Mountains" to learn the extraordinary measures that have been put in place, for decades now. But no matter what you do, you can't prevent or mitigate against every disaster.

In 2016 there was a bad drought in East Tn and everything was very dry. A fire started in the Smoky Mtns. park at a very popular hiking destination, the Chimney Tops. It's a hike I've done myself a number of times. This is the most visited park in the USA and the fire was doubtless started by a careless or stupid hiker. The fire burned for 4 days or so in the park before very high winds quickly spread the fire into the extremely overdeveloped and stupid tourist trap town of Gatlinburg. 14 people died and and *many* buildings burned down. After it was over, the blame game got started. They knew days ahead of time that the wind was coming, and water drop aircraft were available in Tn not that far away. Officials decided not to try and quench the then relatively small fire inside the park due to the costs involved in doing that. Each water drop costs around 20,000 dollars. They decided to wait maybe also cause rain was forecast after the high winds. They figured the fire would burn itself out before escaping the park. The terrain in the area was extremely steep and difficult, that's why it's a favorite hike for many park visitors. It was very difficult for fire crews on foot to work in the area. They dithered around for a few days, the winds came, Gatlinburg had a firestorm, and the rest is history.

 

[firekindler]

That's not accurate: View attachment 1233452
This is at Big Sur in 2017; dipping out of the Pacific.

Here's some detail: https://getpocket.com/explore/item/...-saltwater-is?utm_source=firefox-newtab-en-us

 

[Burning man]

Most people don't know about the lachman fire that started early new years day by fireworks in Palisades, the Palisades fire started basically right next to that burn scar.

https://forums.wildfireintel.org/t/ca-lac-palisades/28010/349?u=thebrushslasher

 

[atpchas]

Palisades fire satellite photos
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/153831/the-palisades-fires-footprint

Eaton fire:
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/153821/eaton-fire-leaves-california-landscape-charred

LA air, urban pollution vs fire produucts
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/153838/unhealthy-skies-over-los-angeles-county

 

[slowp]

Here's an excellent video which explains why large fires cannot be "put out" while the wind is ripping.

 

[ATpro]

Do you have any evidence to back up these claims? Or are you just talking out your ass? We had a 160 acre prescribed burn less than a half mile from my house last summer and they didn't spend "millions of dollars on studies and environmental issues."

Burning is by for the cheapest way, but not as cheap as you think. These are the cost I had to take in consideration when planning a control burn. Just to do the planning of the burn and doing the environmental impact study along with burn insurance, permits, and on the ground management. I charged less than this but this is what the Alabama Forestry Commission has for their cost per acre and per hour rate.

Site Preparation Burns	$25 per acre
Under story Burn	$20 per acre
Farm Tractor or Equivalent	$100 per hour
Medium Tractor or Dozer	$125 per hour
Large Tractor or Dozer	$160 per hour

 

[Gologit]

160 bucks an hour for a dozer? Does that include the operator? What size dozer? What size constitutes a medium dozer and where is the break where a large dozer is considered? Transport costs? Standby costs?

Is everything you guys do as cheap as the costs you listed?

 

[singinwoodwackr]

In 2016 there was a bad drought in East Tn and everything was very dry. A fire started in the Smoky Mtns. park at a very popular hiking destination, the Chimney Tops. It's a hike I've done myself a number of times. This is the most visited park in the USA and the fire was doubtless started by a careless or stupid hiker. The fire burned for 4 days or so in the park before very high winds quickly spread the fire into the extremely overdeveloped and stupid tourist trap town of Gatlinburg. 14 people died and and *many* buildings burned down. After it was over, the blame game got started. They knew days ahead of time that the wind was coming, and water drop aircraft were available in Tn not that far away. Officials decided not to try and quench the then relatively small fire inside the park due to the costs involved in doing that. Each water drop costs around 20,000 dollars. They decided to wait maybe also cause rain was forecast after the high winds. They figured the fire would burn itself out before escaping the park. The terrain in the area was extremely steep and difficult, that's why it's a favorite hike for many park visitors. It was very difficult for fire crews on foot to work in the area. They dithered around for a few days, the winds came, Gatlinburg had a firestorm, and the rest is history.

Find and listen to the radio conversation between the ranger up the canyon from Paradise, CA and the water drop dispatcher the morning of that fire storm…

 

[ATpro]

160 bucks an hour for a dozer? Does that include the operator? What size dozer? What size constitutes a medium dozer and where is the break where a large dozer is considered? Transport costs? Standby costs?

Is everything you guys do as cheap as the costs you listed?

That's a quote from Alabama Forestry Commission back a few years ago. It would be much higher from a private contractor. AFC tried to get folks to use their service that way they didn't get called out on a runaway fire. When I did work for timber Co. I had a set price per acre for the burn plan and managing the burn, they took care of the site prep, insurance, and leg work.

 

[slowp]

160 bucks an hour for a dozer? Does that include the operator? What size dozer? What size constitutes a medium dozer and where is the break where a large dozer is considered? Transport costs? Standby costs?

Is everything you guys do as cheap as the costs you listed?

When doing appraisals, those costs are updated each year and also listed for specific areas. CA and WA are going to be higher, probably way higher than Alabama as we pay higher wages, fuel is pricier, terrain is steeper, etc.

It may not be real world, but that's how it goes.

I made a real life appraisal while in a class at Oregon State. I based my crew size on what was normal for the woods where I was working. I got dinged for not having more people working on the landing, and having a cat on the area for push me pull me hauling and use as a tail hold. Real world is not book world, although roads and trucks might be good enough now that push me pull me is not needed as much. But it's still one chaser, not two.