That is why in my opinion if you are interested whether x,y,z is legal or permissible it is best to email the relevant government department or agency rather than to call or talk to them in person. First of all if the answer you get is in writing the person or government employee who wrote that answer is more likely to have done more research and made sure that its legal rather than just say what they think of off the top of their head. That is assuming they mistakenly thought they had the authority to give something away or were ignorant of the law themselves. Secondly its also better to get it in writing because the government employee maybe deliberately misleading you, and telling you that something which they know is illegal to be legal, if it is an unrecorded conversation and thus committing entrapment. They can't do that if you have their reply in writing and have it as proof if any trouble comes up.
Firewood Poaching?
- Thread starter ReggieT
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That is why in my opinion if you are interested whether x,y,z is legal or permissible it is best to email the relevant government department or agency rather than to call or talk to them in person. First of all if the answer you get is in writing the person or government employee who wrote that answer is more likely to have done more research and made sure that its legal rather than just say what they think of off the top of their head. That is assuming they mistakenly thought they had the authority to give something away or were ignorant of the law themselves. Secondly its also better to get it in writing because the government employee maybe deliberately misleading you, and telling you that something which they know is illegal to be legal, if it is an unrecorded conversation and thus committing entrapment. They can't do that if you have their reply in writing and have it as proof if any trouble comes up.
May not be what you would call an "owner" but the state/county is legal authority over the right of way. Taking something off it without asking is no different that taking from private property without asking. You can be charged with theft either way.
Harry K
The Forest Service here, (federal) has a nice handout that you get when you buy your firewood permit. It is very detailed and is updated every month. Copies are put in a box outside. It's really hard to not be able to figure out what is legal and what is not. The private woods are pretty much gated off.
ReggieT
Addicted to ArboristSite
BTW...where do you go in your respective state to purchase "Firewood Cutting Permits" for various forest and or parks?
Odog
ArboristSite Operative
I usually goto the forest circus office to get a permit and a map. There are a few stores in small towns that are authorized to sell forest circus wood permits and that is a lot handier when cutting on the weekends when the guvment circus isn't open
stihly dan
Addicted to ArboristSite
I was proud of little brother today for this same thing. We were cutting on a few acre lot that we can have all the wood we want. He needs some standing dead this year wood, he found a nice barkless oak down off the ground good to go. We were in the middle of the woods and I told him I think this is off the property we were working on. He immediately said "to bad, its not worth it," turned around and walked away. He could have got away with it, but chose to do the right thing.
Huh??
Harry, the State of Washington ain't the whole country... it's just the State of Washington.
We don't allow government that much power out here... the State/County has the right to use my property for a roadway (the potion described as the Right-of-Way), but I'm still the lawful owner, I pay taxes on it, and other than traffic related I still retain all other legal "authority" over it.
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cus_deluxe
Commie Satan turd
Unless its on state property (public property) and that right-of-way is being cleared. You may need a firewood permit, available for a few dollars in MI for state forests.
We are surrounded by Federal land. So we go to the nearest Forest Service Office to get a permit. It's cheap.
Different Forests have different rules. Because we are an "owl" area, we have stricter rules than say, Idaho or Montana or even east of the Cascade Mountains.
http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/giffordpinchot/passes-permits/?cid=fsbdev3_005073
Simple rule. If you dont know who it belongs to, but You know it dont belong to you, and you take it, you have stole it.
ReggieT
Addicted to ArboristSite
I concur
A traffic sign is traffic related... it was placed there by the State using tax dollars per the Right-of-Way easement... which makes it public property... and the stealing of public property is covered under a different set of laws other then Right-of-Way.
I'm gonna' quote you again...
I live on a paved road. The State or County does not have the "legal authority" to give someone permission to cut or take wood standing or laying in the ditch (Right-of-Way) along my property (approximately 1 mile long). That tree or dead-fall belongs to me, it is my property, and I have full "legal authority" over it... period. Per the easement, If that tree or dead-fall presents a public (traffic) hazard the State/County can cut it to remove the hazard without my permission, but they cannot haul that wood away (or give it away) without my permission... they must leave it lay, because it is mine, I have "legal authority" over it. Per the easement, the the State/County may mow the shoulder, but the grass, weeds and anything else growing in the ditch (Right-of-Way) is mine... I (and only I) can cut it, bail it, and even sell it... because it is mine, I have full "legal authority" over it.
Now it may be different in the State of Washington... heck, it may be different in the next county over... and I know that Right-of-Way easements are different along Interstate Highways... however...
The State/County only has the right (per the easement description) to use my property for a roadway (the potion described as the Right-of-Way), but I'm still the lawful owner (of the land, not the pavement or traffic signs), I pay taxes on it, and other than traffic related (public use) I still retain all other legal "authority" over it... period.
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Spidey's pretty well hit the nail on the head here. I can also tell you, I own approximately 2 miles of property along US HWY 41, and the same laws apply. You have no right to take any resource off of my property. The state has a right to maintain my property, but that's about it. I had an incident a couple years ago with mushroom hunters, these people seem to think that they can hunt and pick mushrooms on the state side of the highway, wrong again, it is still my property. So the trespassing charges stuck up in court on the last person I had arrested for picking mushrooms on my property. They tried to fight it, saying it was state property, and lost.
I had people walk right under signs to pick berries and cut firewood off my right of ways. And it's not like they just took the part of the tree that fell onto the road, they took the whole dang 16" tree!
SierraWoodsman
ArboristSite Guru
Last year I witnessed five large trucks caring large amounts of piñon pine firewood two of which were large one ton trucks with high side racks 12 foot beds and we're pulling large double axle trailers all were brimming full of logs and no tags on any of them in fact we only saw one small pick up that had their load legally tagged it was an elderly couple I would estimate just on our short two hour trip up the mountain I saw at least 6 to 7 cords being illegally poached off the mountain I can only imagine how much illegal harvesting is going on I believe it is highly likely that much of the wood that is being stolen is being sold for profit. What I saw both saddened and angered me I was born and raised in this area and in my woodcutter myself that depends on heating are home with wood to keep our family warm for the winter. I cut every year for the last 20 years on both BLM land and USFS land I believe and always following the rules and teaching my children to do the same I would always take the time and expense to get my permits and properly tag the load before heading back home obviously not everyone has the same appreciation for our natural resources or following the law. Having cut for many years on both BLM land and USF land I can tell you from experience that you don't see the same degree a blatant poaching of firewood in the Sierras that I witnessed on Como Mountain(BLM Land), Nearly every time I go up to the Sierras I see a USFS ranger who stops and checks our permits and make sure that we have the proper safety equipment on hand to put out a small fire should one accidentally occur. I am actually surprised on the rare occasion we are not visited by a Ranger when cutting on USFS land, conversely I have never seen a BLM ranger on patrol on mount Como in all the years I've been cutting.
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SierraWoodsman
ArboristSite Guru
It frustrated me so much I wrote out a statement and walked it into the BLM office, as I didn't get any kind of response when emailing it. I gave it to them they seem concerned, but as to whether anything was actually done about it I don't know.
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SierraWoodsman
ArboristSite Guru
I remember as a young boy cutting firewood with my dad and my uncle Bill. One year uncle Bill did not get his permit after a full days cutting we each had about a 2 cord load. On our way out of this site sure enough we get stopped by a USFS for a ranger. They checked my dad out first who had everything properly tagged and his permit in order. Then they went to my uncle who was right behind us with no tags and no permits. That night ended very badly for uncle Bill.
Pretty much threw the book at him. Impounded his truck and trailer. Also impounded his saws and threw him in jail for the night. On top of that he had some very hefty fines to pay. All because he didn't want to bother to go down and buy $20 worth of permits and tags. I never forgot that incident.
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Pretty much threw the book at him. Impounded his truck and trailer. Also impounded his saws and threw him in jail for the night. On top of that he had some very hefty fines to pay. All because he didn't want to bother to go down and buy $20 worth of permits and tags. I never forgot that incident.
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