Fuel Injection ?

[rahtreelimbs]

With all the chat about EPA regulations, I want to know if anyone thinks fuel injection will be in future use on chainsaws.

 

[stihltech]

injection

Yes, we will see it shortly. I believe there are units running now.
The snowmobile industry seem sto have figured it out, so it should just be a process of miniturization to get it on a saw.

 

[rahtreelimbs]

Stihltech,

Besides the obvious lower emissions, will fuel injection give more power gains?

 

[confused]

The watercraft, snow mobile, and dirt bike industries which in the past depended on the responsiveness / and power to weight ratio of two strokes is switching to four strokes. Will the saw companies invest thousands of dollars on fuel injection two strokes which still will emit pollution (albeit less than their carb brethren) or will the saw manufacturers invest in the future, Ultra low weight four stroke torque monsters for motors.

I do not know but I would think that given the direction of the rest of the two stroke industries I would think that they are working on four strokers.

 

[glens]

I was going to give a smartass answer, but realized a couple of the ideas were actually good...

Rich, it would certainly be less wasteful of finite resources, but the net result might be less power available for cutting when you consider the added "expense" of powering the electronics and fuel systems.&nbsp; One thing's for sure, the aftermarket modification would become even more specialized, and may halt for a brief (at least) period until the reprogramming can be figured out.&nbsp; And <i>that</i> might be illegal under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998.&nbsp; For a crazy example of that, see http://www.politechbot.com/p-04319.html

Glen

 

[bwalker]

Confused, While the cycle industry has largely went four stroke the snowmobile industry hasnt. They will have direct injection machines out in the next few years that are cleaner and more fuel efficiant than fourstrokes. Will we see this on saws? Maybe. Piago in Italy has asmall mechnicaly driven direct injection system for scooters(50cc) that works really good and is only slightyl heavier than a current two cycle.
Now back to saws. Standard fuel injection is worthless from a emmisions standpoint. It has been used for years in snowmobiles with success. The technology that is really of use is direct injection. This form of injection fires the injector only after the exhaust port has closed so there is no loss of fresh charge out the exhaust. This really cleans the emmisions up and raises fuel economy by a large amount. I doubt you will see this on saws as in the near future.
Husky has the meens to build a very clean two cycle right now that uses a carb. It was developed by Dr. Gordon Blair and there is a paper on it if you want to dig. My fealing is that the two cycle will stay provided the laws dont get totaly wacko. Technologys exist to clean the two cycle up and they will be cheaper than building a equivalant performing four cycle. When its all said and done it the $ that count and two cycle are cheap to produce and refine.

 

[glens]

"Design and Simulation of Two-Stroke Engines"

http://www.optimum-power.com/abstract16.htm

http://www.motolit.com/desandsimoff.html

http://www.geocities.com/tunwiz/Programs.htm

I don't know anything about it (I just googled for it).

Ben, why do you say Husky can do it?&nbsp; Do you suggest <i>only</i> they can?


Glen

 

[NevadaWalrus]

My opinion is within the next ten years all power equipment will be computer controlled fuel injection. 2 cycles will need to be direct injecton, 4's will be throttle body.

This won't be so much because of as need to meet emissions but as a way to meet emissions and return smooth proper running and power throughout the engines rpm range. Just remeber how crappy car ran in the 70's trying to meet emissions on carbs. Just like power equipment does today. But todays cars all have computer controlled injection and they run much better. Cost is going to be a big factor in the entire deal. Can't buy a Impalla for $4000 anymore, probably can't even make the down payment for that.

 

[Tony Snyder]

Ya Glens,

I think e-lux is in the best position to develop
the technology for saws. (Can you Stihl fans lay low here until we lure Glens into the ring)

I see your wantin a fight again, and I'm your man; we'll all go tag team on ya, since you at least appear to be educationally fortunate. (by the words you use)

 

[bwalker]

Ben, why do you say Husky can do it? Do you suggest only they can?

Stihl could do it just a easily as husky as the tech isnt eactly earth shattering. In facvt since stihl is smaller power ope only company they might have a advantagfe in R&D. Everyone knows he efficantly a large corp like E-lux is.

 

[glens]

Tony,

I'm not looking for a fight unless, parenthetically, it's whether to use the clear term two-<i>stroke</i> as opposed to the nebulous two-<i>cycle</i>; but the title of the paper itself, with it's peremptory lucidity, should suffice as an argument.&nbsp; You'll note that I had successfully refrained from raising the point in my original reply, notwithstanding it's presence in the initial draft.&nbsp; Perhaps if I'd taken formal education beyond the 11th grade I would have learned to not wander into arguing petty technicalities.&nbsp;

I was merely attempting to discern if maybe E-lux had "bought the rights", or in some other way achieved exclusivity in the matter.


Glen

 

[Crofter]

Babcock BBOI

Definitely going for the trophy!

Frank

 

[dbabcock]

Frank,
I can't understand what Glens just said either.

Glens is Beavergirl.

 

[Fish]

The man has a HUGE thesaurus, but size is not important, at least
my wife tells me so.

Echo has come up with some new designs that meet emission
requirements, without fuel injection. Luckily fuel injection/
computer driven equipment will take a few more decades before
it is instilled. Or at least another decade. If we are lucky,
we will all be dead in 2013. Sorry, I am depressed. Pax has
discontinued Bonanza, and Nash Bridges has been irradicated
from Fox. Life is unfair.

 

[Tony Snyder]

What is a parenthetical fight, and what the h@ll is peremtory lucidity?

We just have pool ball and cue stick fights down at the bar once in a while. The cops just stay outside till things calm down, then they come in and see which woman threw the first ball. Would that be a real fight or just a parenthetical one?

In my engineering career we once went from Illinois to Kinston, North Carolina to a high level quality control inquisition. The biggest quality dog got up and said " We are experiencing askew perpendicularity in the assembly of our accelerometers to the circuit boards". My boss immediately replied "Well h@ll if youda just called us and told us they were crooked, we would have just fixed it and we wouldn't of had the expense of flying most of these forty people her to this high priced hotel".

 

[glens]

Tony,

Yesterday it was Brian, today you.&nbsp; I wonder who you'll be tagging off to... &nbsp;

In your example, I'd say the fight was parenthetical if the pool table had not been overturned.

For "peremptory" and "lucidity"; think "authoritative" and "clarity", which I'd wanted to not reuse for certain reasons.

I hope you're actually having fun.&nbsp; I know that's my intention.&nbsp; If you <i>really</i> want to fight, let me know so I can come prepared when I visit you to see those JohnnyReds and Solos.

Your boss had a better sense of composure than me.&nbsp; I'm certain I'd have been too busy rolling on the floor laughing to say anything for at least a minute or two.&nbsp; Even then, I'd want to be sure I could come up with something "real good" in response.

Not Beavergirl

(the uptime counter on my Linux NAT/firewall/nameserver/&c. box is about 45 minutes away from rolling over at 497.1 days; ain't that exciting?)

 

[confused]

Back on the subject,

Direct fuel injection as i know it is:

having a fuel injector that injects directly into the cumbustion chamber Example diesel injectors

The problem with direct injection is the ultra high pressures needed to get atomized fuel.

New designs we are working on have injections pressures between 2000-2500 bar for diesels

WIth the lower compressions of two stroke engines pressurs could lower, but, still going to need at least a couple hundred bar.

direct injectors are heavy in comparison to there indirect injector brethren and heavy equals bad.

Also with direct injectors the mix rate will be really important.

Now with my previous statement of four strokes will take over.

I dont know anymore. either way will yield more weight.

 

[bwalker]

Confused, Direct injection already exists on two strokes. Look at outboards, watercraft and in the next year or so sleds. The OMC Ficht system as used by Polaris and evinrude doesnt weigh much and works great. The only bug that neads to be worked out for sleds are throttle response issues and a low rpm ceiling. BTW Huskys new e-tech trimmers have more than a 50%reduction in emmsions and still use a carb! Who knows what we will see in the future. I cant see four strokes in saws because of the weight, and expense.
BTW the problems associated with direct injection in diesel engines are not a problem with two cycles. It is actually bad to have droplet sive too small in a two stroke as it hampers piston cooling. This was a big problem in the early ficht and orbitol DI outboards.

 

[Tony Snyder]

I was just funnin with you Glens, you keep your cool pretty well.

As far as fuel injection goes, I have not a clue. I just hope they don't go to 4 strokes on chainsaws.

 

[Tzed250]

Amen!

They are going to skip right over four-stroke spark engines and go straight to diesel power