Future Fuel

[PetrolHead]

Hello all.
Aside from the argument of when crude oil will become too expensive to produce, I was wondering what your thoughts were on what we will be using in small engines when it does happen?
Transport is already gearing up as you know, with buses already running on Natural Gas , Bio Diesel and some Australian states are trialing Hydrogen I'm told.
Cars seem to have a few options too, including already mentioned and Ethanol, But what about two strokes for example (my chainsaw)?
Ethanol? I've read it does'nt mix well with mineral oils but does with synthetics, also that some seals are affected by it and some are not.
There must be a fuel to replace petrolium when needed, there are a lot of power tools out there and I can't imagine replacing them all with electric motors.

 

[Lawn Masters]

Electric motors, are unlikely unless someone creates one that can generate its own power in the middle of nowhere, without weighing a ton.

I dont know what we'll use for fuels then, but it will be interesting.

 

[Crofter]

I believe they can synthesize gasoline form any hydrocarbon substance. Course grass and even woodchips can converted to oils or alcohol or what have you. It is not presently as cheap as crude oil but it can be done. Maybe they will be using a lazer powered saw to zap those trees.

 

[JohnL]

For ethanol I hear it takes more energy to produce it than it contains.

 

[b1rdman]

I believe they can synthesize gasoline form any hydrocarbon substance. Course grass and even woodchips can converted to oils or alcohol or what have you. It is not presently as cheap as crude oil but it can be done. Maybe they will be using a lazer powered saw to zap those trees.

I think you're right. I've read that Butterball (the turkey folks) have factories that turn their turkey waste into #2 heating oil.

The smell of the processing has caused quite a stir and even shut plants down, plus the economics aren't quite there yet. Give it time though and I think we'll see that most carbons can be broken down into simpler carbons that can be burned as fuel.

 

[Crofter]

John, I dont have any stats at hand but I think that if all the energy used to till, plant, harvest and transport the corn plus the energy used to change it into ehanol, is all considered it is presently a net loss. There probaly aare better crops that will be tailor made for energy conversion that should be much better. I read not too long ago of an enzyme that would work up to 190 Deg F. and break down crude fibre into fermentable starches. Corn is food grade energy. I think when petroleum gets a bit pricier that alternative ways will be found. We are really just now starting to consider the possibility that the flow of FREE? oil will come to an end.

 

[skwerl]

Known oil reserves will last at least 60 years. When I was a kid during the '72 oil crisis, known reserves were 25 years. By the time I die there will be over 100 years of reserves, and the technology will have been developed to refine current unusable oil like the oil sand fields in Canada. There is no il crisis, oil will be our fuel for the next 200 years or more.

 

[bwalker]

Then there is coal, which can be converted into high grade gasoline. Just ask the Germans as they did this during WW-2.
Incidently the USA has more tar sands and oil shale than Canada, we just havent chosen to use much of it yet.

 

[skwerl]

It's actually pretty smart of the oil companies to suck the Arabs dry first, before exploiting any more of our reserves here in the US. I may not like the decision to not drill in Alaska, but it just means that our oil will be there 60 years from now when Iraq goes dry. Our children and grandchildren will have plenty of oil.

 

[16:1mix]

For ethanol I hear it takes more energy to produce it than it contains.

Old myth.
If this were true, there would not be two privately funded (investors) ethonol plants in the county that I live in. (central Iowa). One is doubling its production capacity after only a few years of operation.

Another little known perk is that the process that makes the ethonol, which is basicly 'Moonshine' when made from corn, also produces a high protein feed supplement for livestock. This reduces the expense of the inputs needed to put meat on the table as well as producing a renewable fuel.

Despite this, ethonol is still not for my 2 stroke motors....and it has poor long term storage properties.

 

[skwerl]

16:1 mix-
Keep in mind also the massive tax incentives given to companies like the two in your county producing ethanol. Believe it or not, most farmers make a huge percentage of their income from the government through grants, assistance programs and tax breaks. Ethanol would not be viable strictly on it's own merits.

 

[bwalker]

Old myth.
If this were true, there would not be two privately funded (investors) ethonol plants in the county that I live in. (central Iowa). One is doubling its production capacity after only a few years of operation.

Can you saw government subsidies. Ethanol sucks in almost every regard.

It's actually pretty smart of the oil companies to suck the Arabs dry first, before exploiting any more of our reserves here in the US. I may not like the decision to not drill in Alaska, but it just means that our oil will be there 60 years from now when Iraq goes dry. Our children and grandchildren will have plenty of oil.

Its a cost thing. It cost more to make oil form tar sands, coal or oil shale so its not utilized. When the cost is attractive it will be used. There might be a alternative by then though.

 

[fubar2]

I kinda think hydrogen is gonna be the next biggie. This is where you, yes you, I said you come into play. Fame, fortune, and above all chicks will come to he who invents a simple inexpensive hydrogen generator. Come on boys you can make it from water, cant be too hard to do.

 

[Marco]

It takes a serious amount of propane to produce nitrogen fertilizer to grow the corn, this was not mentioned. And it takes fuel to pull water up a 16" casing to water it too.
What really is upsetting is when the government gives out low interest loans to farmers to bulldoze standing hardwood into a heap and burn it so they can grow corn. Then we burn corn in stoves.

 

[stihlatit]

Well you asked and here it is the future of fuel. Put a chicken in your tank and check this chit out.

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/methane_bate.html

 

[bwalker]

I kinda think hydrogen is gonna be the next biggie.

Only with lots more Nuclear power

 

[04ultra]

We took a trip to alaska 3 years ago and the caribou looked healthy and seemed to hang around the pipe line...

Let them drill

 

[bwalker]

I have hunted just outside Prudo (sp?)Bay. I say drill as there isnt crap on the coastal plain besdies rock and lichen. The caribou are not bothered by the pipeline in the slightest.

 

[fubar2]

bwalker, whats nucular power got to do with hydrogen?

 

[bwalker]

bwalker, whats nucular power got to do with hydrogen?

Without Nuclear power Hydrogen is neither clean, nor cheap, nor sustainable. It takes fossil fuel to make the the massive amounts of electricity required to make hydrogen. This results in pollution thats worse than gasoline combustion and great expense. Not to mention the fact that we have very little spare elctrical generation capacity so its not even feasible.