Getting a handle on bidding with the big boys

[Sunrise Guy]

I recently had lunch with a mover and shaker on the tree scene around here. He told me that Asplundh routinely bids out at $35-40/hr. for jobs all over the US. "You mean $35-40/man/hr., right?" I asked him. "No, I mean $35-40/hr. for a crew" he answered.

Is this guy blowing smoke up my :censored: , or what? I'd like to hear from those of you who have been on the commercial bidding scene for some time.

Thanks!

 

[custom8726]

$320.00 for an 8hr day? That can't be right, can it?

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I recently had lunch with a mover and shaker on the tree scene around here. He told me that Asplundh routinely bids out at $35-40/hr. for jobs all over the US. "You mean $35-40/man/hr., right?" I asked him. "No, I mean $35-40/hr. for a crew" he answered.

Is this guy blowing smoke up my :censored: , or what? I'd like to hear from those of you who have been on the commercial bidding scene for some time.

Thanks!

They have many different bidding schemes, a lot of ROW is bid by the linear mile or road section. Muni work is done per tree or road section and mile. I've seen all three done. One way they can get very low bids on large jobs is they can have the cleanup done as the skilled men keep on working. They can then estimate the cleanup at $40/crew-hour, and on some really big ones I've seen similar companies come through with a log truck for the brush piles, one man on the boom and one on the ground for fine cleanup.

So the idea of hourly is apples : oranges in how the labor/equipment hours are applied in the field.

One of the problems with the EAB work in MI is that the big companies depressed the value of removal work with the big blanket contracts they did. They had 10 trees in a neighborhood that would have cost $1200 ea, but did them for $500ea. Then Tree Trimmer Dan comes by for a sugar maple and wants the $1200 and the HO goes ballistic because he knows that last one cost $500.

 

[treemandan]

They have many different bidding schemes, a lot of ROW is bid by the linear mile or road section. Muni work is done per tree or road section and mile. I've seen all three done. One way they can get very low bids on large jobs is they can have the cleanup done as the skilled men keep on working. They can then estimate the cleanup at $40/crew-hour, and on some really big ones I've seen similar companies come through with a log truck for the brush piles, one man on the boom and one on the ground for fine cleanup.

So the idea of hourly is apples : oranges in how the labor/equipment hours are applied in the field.

One of the problems with the EAB work in MI is that the big companies depressed the value of removal work with the big blanket contracts they did. They had 10 trees in a neighborhood that would have cost $1200 ea, but did them for $500ea. Then Tree Trimmer Dan comes by for a sugar maple and wants the $1200 and the HO goes ballistic because he knows that last one cost $500.

My brother told me about those 500 dollar sugar maples, its sad.


Here is something, one of the many estimates i have seen lately... its from a spill company for the work needed in my driveway. I tried to scan the whole thing but... anyway:

Operations manager-50 per hour
Equipment operator- 40 per hour
laborer-35 per hour
bobcat- 370 per day
Hoe -700 per day
service truck - 125 per day
Tri-Axle- 600 per day
fuel ( yup its listed)- 50 bucks per day... that's it?
Pick up truck-75 per day
Container-300... just so happens I need 4 of em!
Daily container demurrage- 15 per day
Dump fees- 50 per ton
Transport to dump ( well they can't leave this stuff just anywhere)- 1100.00

The proposal is to excavate 900 sq. feet to a depth of 2.5 feet and then fill it and resurface it with asphault so the bottom line is 15 K.
I was going to post this in a thread by itself to show people, its a great reference for those in doubt of what is real and what is cheating themselves.
400 a day for a stumper wouldn't be that bad if you worked everyday but you can see how other charges might apply as well.

 

[BarkingMad]

I don't think any respectable outfit bids that low. It doesn't cover insurance. For most companies it wouldn't pay for a CDL driver and truck to leave the yard for so little.

 

[tomtrees58]

I don't think any respectable outfit bids that low. It doesn't cover insurance. For most companies it wouldn't pay for a CDL driver and truck to leave the yard for so little.

yep that's how they bid keep working it mite get worse bucket pay is 8.00 pr hrs tom trees

 

[treemandan]

I don't think any respectable outfit bids that low. It doesn't cover insurance. For most companies it wouldn't pay for a CDL driver and truck to leave the yard for so little.

If you are talking about my estimate , Yeah I thought so too. Not counting the containers and dump fees you get that for 3020 a day.
Ah wait! there is no paving to be done, just modified backfill.

 

[treemandan]

yep that's how they bid keep working it mite get worse bucket pay is 8.00 pr hrs tom trees

the labores doing my clean up were at 10.

 

[Rftreeman]

I don't know about Asplundh but when I was a GF for Davey we billed the power company a per man hour rate, not a crew rate, we also billed for equipment rates, so I would say he means $35 to $40 per man hour, ours was a bit less than that but that was 3 years ago.

 

[lxt]

I don't know about Asplundh but when I was a GF for Davey we billed the power company a per man hour rate, not a crew rate, we also billed for equipment rates, so I would say he means $35 to $40 per man hour, ours was a bit less than that but that was 3 years ago.

Yeah it has to be per man hr, which is probably way below scale, crew leader making $12-$14hr pretty sad!

I have some good friends at the yellow & green company & a bucket truck with 2 men had to make $640 a day to break even!! however asplundh is a pretty large company and may work off pennies instead of dollars!

I bill out at $100 hr with 3 men & I think that sucks, but its what my area dictates, some days I get much more & some much less! what a living uhh?

LXT............

 

[M.D. Vaden]

I heard of a big landscape company around here, that bid many jobs at a loss, making money off other stuff, while driving out small competitors - and then raising prices again later.

The details are uncertain about the type of jobs. The news was relayed by another company bidding on similar stuff.

 

[TDunk]

I bill out at $100 hr with 3 men & I think that sucks, but its what my area dictates, some days I get much more & some much less! what a living uhh?

LXT............

Same here

 

[Sunrise Guy]

I guess there aren't any former Asplundh muni/commercial bid guys on here. I thank you other guys for the replies, but I still haven't heard from anyone with past bidding experience when it comes to Asplundh and muni/commercial contracts.

I know for a fact that Big O pays their crew leaders $13/hr., to start. The other guys get $8-10/hr. So, if you take a three-man crew, you might be talking about, around, $30/hr. Now, if you are bidding $40/hr., and making $10/hr. after you pay your crew, that's $80/day. Multiply that by the thousands of crews Asplundh has working all over the US, and you are looking at more than $80,000/day. Yep, there are tons of overhead expenses, to be sure, but at 80G's plus a day, over crew cost, I think they can do just fine.

Again, if there is anyone out there who used to submit bids for Asplundh, I'd like to hear from you. You can pm me, if that works better for you. Thanks.

 

[Husky137]

You think you can pay FICA, taxes, vehicle insurance,comp, fuel, maintainence costs, liabilty..yada,yada,yada on $10 an hour?

 

[treemandan]

You think you can pay FICA, taxes, vehicle insurance,comp, fuel, maintainence costs, liabilty..yada,yada,yada on $10 an hour?

You can get rich by counting thousands of dollars or a bazzilion nickles.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

You can get rich by counting thousands of dollars or a bazzilion nickles.

Very well said! The sad truth is that many just don't get it, when it comes to understanding the power of a compounded cash flow courtesy of sweetheart contracts all over the country and, indeed, for Asplundh, the world. When a smaller business goes up against the big boys, they are starting out at a disadvantage even before they put their first bid on the table. With this post, I'm trying to confirm that figure I was given, over dinner. I think the fellow was right, but I keep getting from those who don't actually know, "Man, you must mean $35-40/hr./man and not per crew."

 

[lxt]

Sunrise, I know what you are saying...But to pay a man $10 hr and make profit you better charge atleast $24 hr for that (1) man, work comp., insurance for him driving your equip./vehicles, not to mention retirement(401k match), etc...

the bigger companies have higher overhead & I have bid against big O, green & yellow & the Ny based company, I can beat them everytime & im running as legit as they are, How? a $100,000 bucket truck needs to make a certain amount just for itself, plus the crews wages, plus salesman wages, plus GF wages & the folks at corporate.

As a small Biz I pretty much do it all, sales, work the field, payroll, maintenance, etc.. we as a small biz cut out atleast 3-4 peoples wages by doing it ourselves......not much family time for us, but untill we grow thats how it goes! as MD. Vaden has posted I too have heard of companies bidding at a loss to get the small guys out of the way, this is where we have to have working capital!!! sooner or later that have to raise prices & thats when we jump back to normal.

Its whether we can suffer a loss for a time too, if you can...IMO this is what makes a Biz last.

whats sad is crew leaders making $13hr & others making $8-$9 an hr, thats terrible!! but hey you gotta live & I feel bad for those guys!

LXT..........

 

[lxt]

I cant beleive a 2 man bucket crew could operate for $30-$40 an hr, NO WAY! not long term!!!! just to fuel the truck & chipper would mean they are working for free 2 days a week!! and that doesnt count wages or any thing else......NO WAY!! they are working for a loss at that Hr rate.

Its even worse with a chip truck....these are usually 3-4 man crews, apply the same formula.......working at a loss!

the only way I know they could make out & Ive heard of the big companies doing this, is by relying on finishing the "bid contract" early....LOL almost never happens, cause the idiot that bid it only looked at 1/4 of the work usually all road work...they dont like walking ROW`s to see what needs done! this is why certain properties go through companies, were not making $$, we got thrown off!!, the inspector has us do ridiculous re-work...etc

so that wage is no doubt short term if at all, did you ever think thats what they want you to think so you wont even attempt to bid it??


LXT...........

 

[mckeetree]

Very well said! The sad truth is that many just don't get it, when it comes to understanding the power of a compounded cash flow courtesy of sweetheart contracts all over the country and, indeed, for Asplundh, the world. When a smaller business goes up against the big boys, they are starting out at a disadvantage even before they put their first bid on the table. With this post, I'm trying to confirm that figure I was given, over dinner. I think the fellow was right, but I keep getting from those who don't actually know, "Man, you must mean $35-40/hr./man and not per crew."

If you would stop and think about how ridiculous that sounds you would stop thinking the fellow is right. And no, Asplundh does not charge $35 per hr. per crew. As this thread lingered I called a guy that fills in part time with us some that worked for Asplundh for years. He told me that was a load of crap. He then said "Maybe back in the sixties."

 

[limbwalker54]

Well, straight from an Asplundh foreman I happen to know, they do NOT charge that little. In fact, he laughed hysterically. He wouldn't get into the actual pricing, however, because I happened upon him in a neighborhood and the area manager was on site.