greffardized

[tinman]

i've seen several of you guys talk about your saws being greffardized.is this similar to walkerized?if so do they/he have a website and or do the same things to saws as walker or madsens?

 

[tundraotto]

hi tinman - dennis greffard does similar stuff to walkers although he will take it one step further and probably pay a lot more attention to detail since hes not a mass production shop. He has a very good reputation among the people that know him and he is very knowledgeable and helpful. I have a 372 on the way to him but thanks to UPS it still has not been delivered - oh well - im sure itll get there, it better .... anyway - he will do his magic and i will post results, video etc. as soon as i get it back from him.

madsens doesnt really do anything to their saws with their powertuning - they dont even modify the muffler so walkers is probably better value of these two - greffard is apparently a saw wizard that will do much more than just tune saws that stand up to either...

 

[rbtree]

tundra,

you said:

**madsens doesnt really do anything to their saws with their powertuning **

Do you own one? Well, I have two. Go to their website to see what they do. It is roughly what Walker's does, shy the muffler job. They cannot do any muffler work due to the new EPA reg's. My 372 was turning 2000 rpm over stock, with OK plug color. Amazing power! But I had them tune it back to be safe to 14000 rpm. It dogged a bit so I bumped it up 500 or so. Gonna have Ken Dunn or Walker's do the muffler soon. All I have for it so far is a 32" bar and it pulls it with ease. Adding a 24" soon. And an 8 tooth sprocket- now there's some chain speed!!

Not my place to rag on you, but a little tact goes a long way, along with some understating..........

;-O))

Roger

 

[kdhotsaw]

modifing saw motors

Hello Tinman,
Dennis and myself are doing a lot more port modification than walkers or masdens but we charge more. . walkers and madsens do a fine job for what they charge and thier saws run pretty darn good. ours just run a little stronger. Heres Dennis Greffards e-mail site and my e-mail site

[email protected]

[email protected] 530-589-2744

Ken Dunn

 

[Gypo Logger]

Hi there, I think its important for us not to use the term "power tuning" as it is really a non descript word. Ken Dunn brought this to my attention some time ago and I think he is correct.
I think the proper term may be simply saw modification or Greffardizing, Walkerizing, Lambertizing etc., however Lambertizing is simply shrinking the metering diaphram on the woodstove, lol.
Although Walkerizing is enough for most of us, Dennis does a bit more and Ken Dunn is probably one of the best in North America.
It is important that you know what you want from your modifide saw and what you intend to use it for before you make your decision and more importantly you must be willing and able to maintain the cutting attachments or it will all be in vain.
Both Dennis and Ken will be doing another 2 saws for me, not because I dont think highly of Walkers, but because I want one of their saws. I guess you could just call it a "Saw Thing".
I try not to waste these guys time by asking endless questions as to what they do to my saws, cause I dont really care as long as it doesnt shorten its life. Its the power and longevity that I am after.
Anyway, I hope you get one of these three saw modifiyers to do a saw for you, I dont think you will be disapointed.
I found out the 090 I got last week at a garage sale was really an 070 which is ok, maybe I will send it to Ken so he can make it get up and talk.
John

 

[tundraotto]

ok - i think were talking about two "different levels" here - madsens doenst really do ???? for your saw - IMHO. i cant see spending $80 for that rubbish.

walkers is a different story kinda - for around $ 140 they will make your saw kick that ass - they pay shipping back too if you want for whatever - im just giving ballparks here.

for the whole different ballgame that kdhotsaw and dennis greffard are talking about....well its a different......he is famous among us saw freaks - i have a saw that is delayed by f____ng UPS and im ready to kill - i want this man to work his magic on my saw - and thats the biggest difference - he will go the extra mile for my saw instead of having a "production" line like walkers...if you dont dennis - ill come out the and kick your canuck ass

anyway - im really an...well you know - and dennis will be working on it so.... im not even worried about the video results...you guys will have fun - i promise (dennis - make me look good - lol).

walkers and madsens arew for semi stock people.

what you want to cut - having trouble cutting with the saw thats right? they can help you - want a pissing match with your neighbour - buy a husky 3120xp...lol..or a big old stihl if you can stihl find one lol. since they are going chapter 11....have fun with the huskys people!!!!

 

[jokers]

I think it`s wrong for anyone to get too carried away bad mouthing anyone`s choice of saw builder, at least when we are speaking of the four mentioned in this post. There are many other good ones also, we just haven`t collided with them yet, although Lambert is trying desperately to entice someone to buy an Ed Heard saw with his vivid descriptions of fantastic performance. I believe it was Don "Big Daddy" Garlitts who said, "Speed costs, how fast do you want to go?". Well that is the question. Ranked in descending order of cost and performance which are inseperable, first we have Ken, most expensive, most experience( for highly tuned saws), most performance for a non-race saw, and the capability to do some first class machining if that`s what is needed. Second we have Dennis, slightly behind Ken in performance potential due to his lack of the big machines for milling bases and cutting off heads, but he makes up for his relative newcomer status by having inate ability and a good relationship with Ken, from what I can see. Next is John Walker. John has a very quick turn around, but it`s not because of any of the shortcomings of production line work. He has plenty of experience and apparently works very quickly on "woods" saws, but race saws these aren`t. He just gives them a robust performance boost. He does build race saws, but you`ll pay alot more. Next is Madsen`s, done by a fellow named Paul if I remember correctly. Basicaly "blueprinting" the saw and cleaning up production imperfections. They are limited by their lack of desire to modify mufflers and from what I recall, they don`t do any real port work in a "powertune". A few years ago I was interested in a powertuned saw, before I knew of the others mentioned here. I called Madsen`s several times and they were most accomodating to talk to and very open with information, they even gave me names of people who had purchased their saws. I called a few of these guys, and the conscensus was that if you know how to, and will maintain a saw, it was $80 well spent. I`m speaking out my a** because I don`t have any of the saws that I have paid to have modified, yet, I`ve got them in transit all over North America right now, but I would say that Madsen`s would posiibly be the bargain of the bunch if you just want a subtle but noticable improvement and increased longevity, and Dennis is the current bargain if you want real seat of the pants horsepower gains. If you want to be the big dog however, you`d better talk to Mr. Dunn. I don`t mean to put down Walkers either, just that their price is virtually the same as Dennis` price, and he makes bigger changes. It`s interesting to note that Walkers and Madsens have dynos while Ken and Dennis don`t, they measure before and after timed cuts to guage performance which is what we are after right. Just that when you have a saw done by Walkers for example, you might be shocked by what the true factory horsepower is, lot`s less than what they advertise. Be careful as you read posts though, I think I caught an STTD from Gypo, "saw talk transmitted disease". In the past month I`ve bought a 385XP which is on it`s way to Dennis, A 346XP Walkerized, and a 357XP which is going somewhere, just don`t know where yet, plus I`ve got the 372XP boxed up and ready to go to Ken, all thanks to John`s inspirational talk. Russ

 

[rbtree]

quite the hothead, aren't ya tundra. 100's of pro users would beg to differ with you. You know, the guys that cut the real timber we have out here (used to have is more like it)

Apparently you didnt go to Madsen's website to see what all they do to a saw for $80 US. I had my 044 done some 8 years ago. A year ago when they did my 372, I still had not heard of Walker's.

Madsen's built the first dyno for chainsaws, presumably. As I understand it, the saw mfr's learned a thing or two from them way back years ago. Sam Madsen is one of the nicest guys I know, along with all the staff there. They have a world of experience building hot saws, but now only do the mild power tune bit, which does include some mild port timing. EPA regulations restrict them from more radical work.

I thinks Walker's does their thing for some $140 cdn, which equals about $5 US, now that's a deal!! They quoted me $80 US for the little Husky 335.

I'm thinking of having Ken do my 3120, the extra ~10 hp sure would help pull its 60 inch bar through the big butt cuts.

Have a great day!

 

[jokers]

Saturday and Sunday Mornings

I`ve begun to look forward to these days, not because it means no work, since I generally work at least some portion of everyday, but because Otto`s posts are usually most colorful and filled with conviction on these days. I think Otto does some serious mental powertuning or "lubrifying" on Friday and Saturday nights. Taken in the right light it is all very entertaining and certainly isn`t worth getting your hair up over:jester: Russ

 

[HUSKYMAN]

I agree with rbtree, what Madsens does is very valuable. The completely disassmble the saw and rebuild it, and at this time they correct any manufacturing errors they see, i.e. burrs, rough castings, etc. They also increase compression and do slight port timing changes. You are only looking at pure power numbers tundra, and you say 10% isnt squat. But in the hands of an experienced user what they do can double the life of the saw. Bottom line is: all these places do a professional job, its just how much do you want to spend? You get what you pay for.

 

[Dennis]

Hey all, sorry for taking so long to get with the program, but I have been away for a few days...Husky Service School on Friday and now on Vancouver Island today. I think Ken and everyone made all thepoints that need to be made...I am actually in Naniamo today, home of Walkers Saw Shop and hoping to be able to get over there and visit them for awhile today.

I dont currently have a website, but am looking for someone to build me one...anyone interested in a trade??

Ken has my old email, which I just changed...the new one is

[email protected]

 

[Art Martin]

All I know is when I put one of my racing chains on a saw that Kenn Dunn has modified, the cut drops off faster. A racing chain does not perform well on a stock saw and is almost a waste of time to think you would win a speed cutting contest with the chain alone. You need the combination of both to do well. It's like putting Eddie Arcaro or Willie Shoemaker on a plow horse and expecting to win the Kentucky Derby. Kenn does a fine job and has wealth of information, and the best part, he is willing to share this information, just ask, you will enjoy talking with him.
Art Martin

 

[Greg Carberry]

This is pretty interesting stuff. I'm going to be rebuilding my saw its a Pioneer P50. I'd like to know a quote of how much it will take to make it cut a little faster and get more life out of it. Basically muffler mods, porting and any other little tricks. Also would like it equipped with a K&N stlye filter as I think it would be better than the stock one.

 

[tundraotto]

hi rbtree - yes i am a hothead - lol - stubborn too...lol you dont have to like it.

Anyway - im not saying that madsens power tuning sucks- what i am saying that what they do doent really amount to much the way i look at it - im sure its perfect for a lot of people. i love dealing with madsens as they are very helpful and relatively cheap - but its not my stop for powertuning - they just dont get enough out of it - ie. if your gonna tune - tune it and dont halfass the job (ie. not getting enough power while your got the ???? thing open in front of you and you can do all you want), madsens is limited as they are a relatively sizeable company with liabilities to their vendors and epa and thus cannot go the extra mile. as you can see from below - it doesnt really amount to all that much like i said. might be good for you for $80 but id rather pay more and get a more complete job. ex opening the muffler is one of the biggest power adders you can do to a modern saw. madsens does not because of the aforementioned considerations.

heres what madsens does (from their website)

Methods of Tuning for More Power
Each saw is slightly different, but this outlines the method we use to get saw engines to produce more power:

Compression Ratio - This is sometimes improved by milling some material from the base of the cylinder. This reduces the size of the combustion chamber and yields more compression. Some back-yarders without real machine tools remove the head gasket for a less precise effect. A cylinder without a gasket is an air leak waiting to happen. By slightly milling the base of the cylinder, we can achieve a slight compression boost with original equipment gaskets.


Port Shapes & Finish - The ports in some cylinders will flow more air with shape changes and smoothing. Casting marks can be removed if they hamper flow.


Port Timing - Saws are called "piston ported" two-cycle engines. This means that the piston acts as a valve and opens and closes the ports to control the flow of air through the motor. We sometimes enhance port timing by making some ports open sooner and stay open longer. This is done by "Power Tuning" the ports, piston, or both. The effect is like putting a "big cam" in a car engine.


Carburetor - We sometimes make changes to the venturi so the carburetor will flow more air. We may also change the way fuel is metered and mixed with the air.


Ignition - We used to change the ignition timing on some modifieds. All current pro saws have sophisticated ignition systems. Currently, we don't change any of the ignition parts or settings.


Muffler - We don't modify spark arrestor mufflers. Some saws come with dual ports from the factory. Dual port mufflers work well. Also, we sell spark screens and exhaust deflectors that are easy for saw owners to install if they choose to. It should be noted that any modification, especially muffler modification, may increase the risk of starting a fire with the saw.


Air Filter & Air Box - In the past, saws have benefited from changing these parts. Current designs and after market products have made changing these parts unnecessary.


Proper Assembly - When we reassemble the saw, our technicians hand assemble each saw, one at a time. Gaskets are trimmed, ports are checked, tolerances are checked. Any product that is assembled on an assembly line is subject to assembly error. Our technicians take more time and give your saw more TLC than the factory assemblers. We may also use this step to make minor design improvements or install a recent factory enhanced part.:alien:

 

[tundraotto]

lol Russ - you got me all figured out....:angel: i know im about as smooth as sandpaper but dont mean to tick anyone off - i just try to ruffle the feathers for some good fun...

 

[WOLF_RIVER_MIKE]

John- I'll never know how she runs, but from an asthetic(sp?) view, that is one beautiful saw.

 

[rbtree]

no prob, otto

I cool off quick too!! LOL

I see you are an Arkie. I lived in Searcy from 1960-65.

rog

 

[tundraotto]

i still remember you too - i dont cool off that quick but i will love you brother as youre my chainsaw crazy friend

to borrow from that crazy canadian - "keep the square chips flying.."

PS. im stihl pissed at you (lol)

 

[tundraotto]

PS huskyman - (aka traitor)

i can feel 10% differences - youre saw bogs down on ya - you would probably know if a another 10% would cure the problem woulndt you? i sure as heck can too so i sent mine to dennis just to make sure...

 

[Dennis]

Otto, just a little teaser here for ya...here is the heart of your saw on the operating table..with partial mods done..