Hardtip vers rollertip

[jhellwig]

I have been reading about various bars and the benefits and weaknesses to better determine what type I should get. I currently have a 16" hardtip on a 028 with success as far as I am concerned. From all that I have read people say that they suck horsepower but is it even noticeable?


I plan on getting either a 18 or a 20 inch in the near future simply to make limbing easier. It will either be on the 028 or my new 260 pro. All we do with our saws is drop trees and cut them up for firewood.


Let the debate begin.

 

[GASoline71]

Let the debate begin.

Hardtips are good for rootin' around on stumps and such...

However... don't expect a debate... since this topic has been rehashed over and over here many times.opcorn: opcorn: opcorn:

Gary

 

[Bluehill logger]

I have been reading about various bars and the benefits and weaknesses to better determine what type I should get. I currently have a 16" hardtip on a 028 with success as far as I am concerned. From all that I have read people say that they suck horsepower but is it even noticeable?

I would doubt that a hard tip bar would cause any noticeable loss in horsepower. Maybe due to greater friction applied to the chain vs. a sprocket tip bar. But again I wouldn't think that would be substantial enough to be noticeable.
I think the real question is why run a hardtip unless you are cutting in dirty wood or conditions that would normally seize a sprocket tip bar.

 

[Justsaws]

Typically a saw will be able to handle the same size hard tip as a sprocket tip. Most issues that I have been told about by the people using a hard tip have been operator error.

I can think of no reason to switch over other than a 028 running .325 on a 20" bar would probably do better with a good quality sprocket tip bar as that in my opinion pretty much tops out the useful power on that saw and any help you can give it will be noticeable.

I run hard tips on over half my saws because I like the durability and ease of maintenance. Most of my Huskys and Jonsereds have hard tips. Most of my large Macs and Homelites do as well. The longest bars that I own are also hard tips.

They do great for limbing and in dirty, crappy wood and hold up nicely for ripping and milling as there are no sprockets to get clogged up or loose. My current milling setup is a 066 with a 24" hard tip and 3/8 chain. I like it a lot.

 

[fishhuntcutwood]

Hardtips are good for rootin' around on stumps and such...

However... don't expect a debate... since this topic has been rehashed over and over here many times.opcorn: opcorn: opcorn:

Gary

Well said Gary.

If you've got a hardtip now, fine. But many sprocket tips (Stihl bars) are maintenance free, so that's not an issue in my book.

Welcome to AS.

Jeff

 

[Lakeside53]

There is a reason why 99.999% (prove my number wrong ) of bars sold are roller tip. Sure you can use a hardnose (example above - Justsaws), but few do.

Plently of old debates on AS to be searched for.

 

[jhellwig]

I did do some searching before posting this and basically all the debated I found just ended with it uses up horsepower and that is where they ended. But then I was also reading threads about people seizing tips and having to grease them, clogging them with wood chips and so on.

The only horsepower losses I could foresee is if you were cutting on top of the bar(which the stihl manual says is a no no but who ever pays attention to that). Other than that it is just dragging the weight of the chain around the nose so that takes next to nothing to do.

Basically all it boils down to is cost of the bar and maintenance. I don't get why the hardening on the tip of the bar makes them cost so much more. To each his own I suppose.


This topic sounded like a better Idea in my head. Oh well. I just need to figure out how to make the search engine do what I want it to.

 

[Bluehill logger]

The only horsepower losses I could foresee is if you were cutting on top of the bar(which the stihl manual says is a no no but who ever pays attention to that).

using the top of the bar to cut with is not a problem. its a standard practice. Just be careful about the upper portion of the bar tip. (kickback zone). This can cause severe kickback

 

[Lakeside53]

Yes.. Stihl doesn't say no to cutting on the top - it's needed to upcut logs..

 

[ciscoguy01]

Maint?

Well said Gary.

If you've got a hardtip now, fine. But many sprocket tips (Stihl bars) are maintenance free, so that's not an issue in my book.

Welcome to AS.

Jeff

I never knew any bars needed maint. until there was actually something wrong with them... You saying there is?

 

[fishhuntcutwood]

I never knew any bars needed maint. until there was actually something wrong with them... You saying there is?

I was speaking mainly of greasable tips, but I'm sure you knew that.

 

[Justsaws]

I will clarify maintenance, dressing bar rails, resetting tip rivets, un-spooling the shavings from the sprocket, and buying new tips. I never liked buying a new tip. It is the only part of a saw that did not give me much purchasing satisfaction. I will also clarify that I almost only cut old dead hard woods. A live tree is a treat and does not come along for my needs very often.

Does any saw manufacture sell new saws with hard tips? I would find that to be amazing, people would have to know how to tension a chain.

I do like a hard tip bar but I think I am usually alone in this.

I will edit this to add that the SP125 in my picture was sporting a 42" hard tip when caught on film threatening a tiny tree. Bad saw, gooood fun. Hard to limb those tiny trees.

 

[jhellwig]

Yes.. Stihl doesn't say no to cutting on the top - it's needed to upcut logs..

Maybe it was do not do unless you are capable of dealing with kickback. I duno. There is so much stuff in the manuals that it says not to do but it should just be common sense. To many people get hurt and try to sue I suppose.

 

[StihlBoy440]

no clue as to durability, but a friend of mine had always ran a hard tip on his 064 and just for fun we put my roller on and in the cut it was noticeable and with a tach installed his revs jumped almost a 1,000 rpm's, now he could have been running his chain to tight on the hard nose bar but that was just what we saw in swapping bars and running the exact chain.

 

[computeruser]

Hardtips are nice to have around for keeping old saws original, but for actually getting out there and cutting stuff, I figure I'll go for every little bit of advantage in keeping friction down, chain temp down, bar temp down. I know that lots of guys talk about how much work it is to keep a sprocket tip going. I don't get it. Sure, every once in a while you get something sucked in there that jams stuff up (for me, one time in the past three years), but I figure it is a worthwhile tradeoff for being able to run a reduced-friction setup.

But you know what - if you're happy with your hardnose bars, keep running them. Really, that's all that matters.

 

[jhellwig]

I suppose I will see here after Christmas what a roller bar is like for us since the 260pro I am giving to my dad comes with one. I have never really run one much before.

 

[yawning_dog]

chain pitch?

This is more of a question than anything, but it seems that a hard tip bar would be more forgiving of different chain pitches. With a roller tip bar, don't you have to match it with your chain pitch, which is also matched to the sprocket pitch? Do you have to do this with a hard nose bar? Couldn't a hard nose bar for a 1/2" or .404" pitch chain easily also accommodate a 3/8" or even .325" chain pitch if desired (assuming the gauge was aslo suitable)?

If so, it would seem that someone might want a hard nose bar to get a little more flexibility if that's desired. Sorry if this has been posted before, but I just started to think about it because I have an old Alaskan Mill that is set up with 1/2" pitch chain and a corresponding far-end helper handle and was wondering if I can change this to .404" without having to get a new handle...

 

[aquan8tor]

seems like you just ought to be able to replace the sprocket in the helper handle. In reference to your question about hardnose bars, I'm under the impression that if the radius is large enough for 1/2, or .404, for that matter, that it will have no problem with any smaller pitches; however, the converse is not true; my Carlton brand BushChamp bar, which is 20" and 3/8" pitch, even though it is hardnose, and any pitch chain could fit on it so long as the gauge is the same, the radius of its tip is too narrow to allow .404 or larger chain to freely spin around it without causing undue wear on the chain links, or bar for that matter.

My 42" windsor/sandvik bar will take either .404 or .375. I guess it would take .325 too, but I don't know why you'd want to with that length. I don't know of any saws that run .325 that could run a 42" bar.

 

[Justsaws]

This is more of a question than anything, but it seems that a hard tip bar would be more forgiving of different chain pitches. With a roller tip bar, don't you have to match it with your chain pitch, which is also matched to the sprocket pitch? Do you have to do this with a hard nose bar? Couldn't a hard nose bar for a 1/2" or .404" pitch chain easily also accommodate a 3/8" or even .325" chain pitch if desired (assuming the gauge was aslo suitable)?

If you are using a roller tip with a big enough roller it will roll any pitch. I only have a few actual roller tips and most of them will roll over 3/8. The same applies to hard tips, as long as the tip has enough radius to accommodate the drive links they will work. Sprocket tips are pitch specific.

Many of the big old hard tips that I have can go up to 3/4" pitch.

 

[yawning_dog]

3/4" pitch

Yikes! 3/4" is some honkin chain! I'll have to check out how my helper handle is made. Thanks for the replies...