Hello from BKVP

[brenndatomu]

the last two winters here in central Pa. have been brutal....around 20 cords each...

And that's why they call OWBs forest eaters...

I can't imagine using 20 cords per year ... that is about 5 years worth for me.

Same here...even with the brutality of the last two winters

I know this stove is'nt gonna heat my whole house @ 5600 sq. ft.
I'm hoping to offset the amount of wood currently consumed by my OWB...

This may work out pretty well for you.
Let me tell you what I did. I took out our gas logs in the fireplace to install a small (1.2 CF) wood stove just to heat the main floor in the spring and fall on those days when you just need to take the chill off. Reason being was that trying to use our Yukon Husky wood/oil furnace on those light heat load days was just crappin the chimney up (I'm too cheap to fire the oil burner side of the Yukon when I have 12 or better cords of firewood sittin outside ready to go) OK, fast forward a couple years now that I have had a chance to tweak things a bit, here's how I run things.
1. On light heat load days, lets say, 35-40* or above, as long as it's not too windy, I run the stove in the fireplace to heat the 1200 sq ft ground floor. With its small firebox, the stove runs 6-8 hrs on the odds n ends, cutoffs and random uglies that get culled out of the good wood stack into homemade bins made just for the "stove wood"
2. On regular winter days, lets say 0* up to 35*, I run the Yukon which heats the ground floor and the additional 1200 sq ft basement (mainly from radiant heat, but there are a couple ducts to the basement) and will heat the 600 sq ft of the second floor guest room as needed. I have made a few mods to the Yukon to clean up the burn a bit, one of those mods was to reduce the size of the firebox, by about a 1/3, by stacking extra firebrick in the firebox. My intention was to pull the extra firebrick out during the really cold part of the winter when I actually needed the extra capacity. But now...
3. On really cold days, under 0*, what I discovered that works very well is to run the stove, in addition to the Yukon (in its reduced capacity state) together. This has dropped me from 5-6 cords per year on a normal winter, to 4-5 cords (didn't keep good track) the last two extra cold/long winters. House stays 72* 24/7...and no more crapped up chimney
So you may be on the right track with your plan there Mr showrdude

 

[HarvestMan]

You might be right, I might be a Stovist. I might also be the kind of person that can smell a H_earth leftist from a mile away. You know, the type that preaches tolerance but is intolerant of all other opinions. You know, the type that wants to have a conversation as long as the other person agrees with their point of view. You know, the type that was raised in one of those places where everyone is a winner. You know, the type that thinks you are arguing when you give a differing opinion. You know, the type that loves to live off the system and thinks they are entitled.

I can see why you fired up a membership over here. Heck, even BKVP can't escape the Socialist ways over there. Like him calling out Justin (bhd21478) five days before he showed up on this forum. VP simply said:

You remind me of a MASH character

Colonel Flagg: This won't look good on your record.
Frank Burns: But Colonel, it's just Reader's Digest.
Colonel Flagg: Not if you eliminate the third, fifth, and sixth letters, then it's Red's Digest, comrade.

 

[bkvp]

Chris BKVP, If the BK Princess would have fit into a 25" High fireplace I'd have bought one. So I went with the Beast (Buck 91) instead of the Best (Mixed Emotions) I'd buy you some Beers Too !!!!

No worries. Buck makes a fine product. They have few cat issues. Just like all cat stoves, maintain a good, tight door gasket seal to avoid thermal shock to the cat. Enjoy the Beast!

 

[bkvp]

Where is VP? Hasn't been seen here for three days. Been showing up over on the Communist site but is MIA here on AS.

Guys,

Very busy in Alaska...still alive. I had not received any alerts to thread activity....sorry!

 

[bkvp]

I've done that a few times by accident. Loaded the stove and got distracted or fell asleep in front of it.

Yeah... it cleaned the glass alright, and also scared the crap out of me. Stove at 800+, house pushing 90*, hot paint/metal smell, whole place rumbling like a train was next door from the draft pulling so hard.

Just left Palmer....headed to ANC-Soldotna. Beautiful weather!!

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

Too darn hot to work in... for both me and the equipment! These temps aren't normal. Usual temps are low to mid 60s, not 80s.

Should have said something, I would have run into town to say hi. I bought my stove from the stove shop in town... drawing a blank on the name at the moment.

 

[NSMaple1]

You might be right, I might be a Stovist. I might also be the kind of person that can smell a H_earth leftist from a mile away. You know, the type that preaches tolerance but is intolerant of all other opinions. You know, the type that wants to have a conversation as long as the other person agrees with their point of view. You know, the type that was raised in one of those places where everyone is a winner. You know, the type that thinks you are arguing when you give a differing opinion. You know, the type that loves to live off the system and thinks they are entitled.

I can see why you fired up a membership over here. Heck, even BKVP can't escape the Socialist ways over there. Like him calling out Justin (bhd21478) five days before he showed up on this forum. VP simply said:

"Justin,

Your post in laughable! For over a year now I have remained silent to all your web posts and your Facebook comments.

Napoleon makes a fine product line. So go sell them without trying to make excuses or post inaccurate, fictional information.

I have always thought of you as an upstanding guy with a bias...which is your right. Bias is acceptable, but false and misleading information borders on....well lets leave at that."

Staff member (Jags) stepped in a short time later and said, "Not on my watch" and locked the thread. I think VP was restrained and professional (& justified) in his response. But at H_earth, if a person even remotely gives the impression they are calling someone out, yep, you guessed it...lock that sucker.

Which kind of gets us back to the question, where is VP? He has logged in everyday over there since Friday but is MIA over here. I can't quite figure that one out especially with the RIDICULOUS STAFF over there that won't let people talk. Maybe someone could PM VP and let the rest of the forum know what's going on.

You got me curious with that so I had to go find the thread & read the whole thing.

I don't see anything wrong with either what BKVP said, or the thread being locked. Sure seemed like the bhd guy was trolling big time, so I agree BKVP had every right to counter what he said (he wasn't the first to do that). And cutting it off before it escalated further seemed OK too. If they really wanted to get 'socialist' (whatever exactly that means), they would be deleting posts all over the place. But they're still there to read.

We might be borderline derailing BKVPs thread a bit - which has the makings of a good one - so that's it for me. But I will say that if I was in the market for a wood stove, BK would definitely be on my shortlist. All kinds of happy BK stove campers out there, which says a lot. Looking forward to more good thread reading on them.

 

[Blowncrewcab]

Since the Same people check all 3 sites (whether they say so or Not ) there is no safe place to hide.... Just Live, Learn, Be Honest, Be Happy...... (And have Thick Skin cause someone somewhere is gonna piss you off ) Hey Chris, Welcome Back ....

 

[Idahonative]

I don't see anything wrong with either what BKVP said, or the thread being locked. And cutting it off before it escalated further seemed OK too. If they really wanted to get 'socialist' (whatever exactly that means), they would be deleting posts all over the place. But they're still there to read.

I agree, I don't want to "derail" VP's thread either. But what you said right there is just wrong in my opinion. Nothing wrong with the thread being locked? Nothing wrong with it being cut off before it escalated further? Even if a person doesn't agree with what is being said (as long as no name calling or cursing), members have to be given the freedom to communicate. You can't assume something bad might be said and therefore, lock the thread. They have an obsession with controlling the discussions over there and that makes it a place to go for plastic information. I obviously don't agree with everything that's said on this forum but at least members aren't scared to give their opinions. Just like I don't agree with everything you say, yet, I believe in protecting your right to say it.

In my opinion, your mentality is part of the problem not only on that forum but also in this country (I realize you don't live here). Half of our country is obsessed with being politically correct and making sure no one gets their feelings hurt. You can't have real, grown up, constructive conversations when you have to walk on egg shells and think about how every word might affect someone.

 

[bkvp]

Too darn hot to work in... for both me and the equipment! These temps aren't normal. Usual temps are low to mid 60s, not 80s.

Should have said something, I would have run into town to say hi. I bought my stove from the stove shop in town... drawing a blank on the name at the moment.

Paul and Emma (his dog) work the Palmer store. Next time!

 

[bkvp]

Allow me to derail my own thread.

The issue isn't freedom of speech. When you are private party you can and should be able to say anything you like. When you are a business, that changes not due to law but due to the court of public opinion. If an individual has a problem with a product, he or she should allow the manufacturer to make it right. When it has been done so, then I would think they could share their situation with the resolution. Just to complain is not part of the solution process.

I recently purchased a very costly new firearm. It is from a company that has an incredible reputation for build quality and customer service. When I took delivery of the new item and pulled the slide, then entire action fell apart and on the floor. I called the company the next day, the day after and the day after that until someone was willing to assist with my dilemma. The upshot, 5 weeks after I took delivery, I was sent the necessary and correct parts. I was pleased to finally receive them. The next day another box arrived with $500 worth of goodies for my patience. They never indicated they were sending the second shipment. This is the first, last and only post on the subject from me. I never posted anything on the web because EVERYONE CAN MAKE A MISTAKE, it's how you handle the situation that matters.

Back to the post that was locked, posters are not hidden by clever web names from liable or slander. Those words are part of our vocabulary for a reason. Opinions are free for all to share, but false information from the uniformed or those with an axe to grind are another whole matter. Manufacturers may have to be careful how they respond to even the most incredulous posts, but there is a world outside the Internet.

I believe, perhaps wrongly so, that this forum is here to help others. If someone is trying to make a buying decision, get help from a manufacturer, receive clarity of wood burning and all that involves, this is a family of knowledge. Let's agree to disagree but in a contstructive manner.

Moving right along.....I will start a new post later (perhaps today) on some of the learning curves we've tackled over the past 35 years refining catalytic stoves.

Best to all....I'm going fishing for Halibut for the next few days!

Chris

 

[Greenthorn]

Allow me to derail my own thread.

The issue isn't freedom of speech. When you are private party you can and should be able to say anything you like. When you are a business, that changes not due to law but due to the court of public opinion. If an individual has a problem with a product, he or she should allow the manufacturer to make it right. When it has been done so, then I would think they could share their situation with the resolution. Just to complain is not part of the solution process.

I recently purchased a very costly new firearm. It is from a company that has an incredible reputation for build quality and customer service. When I took delivery of the new item and pulled the slide, then entire action fell apart and on the floor. I called the company the next day, the day after and the day after that until someone was willing to assist with my dilemma. The upshot, 5 weeks after I took delivery, I was sent the necessary and correct parts. I was pleased to finally receive them. The next day another box arrived with $500 worth of goodies for my patience. They never indicated they were sending the second shipment. This is the first, last and only post on the subject from me. I never posted anything on the web because EVERYONE CAN MAKE A MISTAKE, it's how you handle the situation that matters.

Back to the post that was locked, posters are not hidden by clever web names from liable or slander. Those words are part of our vocabulary for a reason. Opinions are free for all to share, but false information from the uniformed or those with an axe to grind are another whole matter. Manufacturers may have to be careful how they respond to even the most incredulous posts, but there is a world outside the Internet.

I believe, perhaps wrongly so, that this forum is here to help others. If someone is trying to make a buying decision, get help from a manufacturer, receive clarity of wood burning and all that involves, this is a family of knowledge. Let's agree to disagree but in a contstructive manner.

Moving right along.....I will start a new post later (perhaps today) on some of the learning curves we've tackled over the past 35 years refining catalytic stoves.

Best to all....I'm going fishing for Halibut for the next few days!

Chris

Post of the year right there.

 

[Ronaldo]

I am not currently in the market for a new stove, but if I was I would very seriously consider a BK product. That being said, when I was researching stoves, I remember advice given on cats/secondary burn as follows; if you like to watch the burn(flames) dont go with a cat. Is this still the consensus? My stoves sits in my family room with a great view of the fire and I REALLY enjoy watching it----partly why I decided against a catalytic stove.

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

Way I figure it, buy one of those electric "fireplaces" with a light bulb for flames if you need a decoration. If you want to heat the house, buy a Blaze King.

If you run the stove with the air turned up some it has flames, otherwise not so much.

 

[Ronaldo]

Way I figure it, buy one of those electric "fireplaces" with a light bulb for flames if you need a decoration. If you want to heat the house, buy a Blaze King.

If you run the stove with the air turned up some it has flames, otherwise not so much.

I dont "need" the decoration, but right now I have a stove that gives me both flame and heat, so I guess I have the best of both.

 

[bkvp]

I am not currently in the market for a new stove, but if I was I would very seriously consider a BK product. That being said, when I was researching stoves, I remember advice given on cats/secondary burn as follows; if you like to watch the burn(flames) dont go with a cat. Is this still the consensus? My stoves sits in my family room with a great view of the fire and I REALLY enjoy watching it----partly why I decided against a catalytic stove.

Ok, let's just start here with a new post...

It's all about burn rate, as defined in kg/hr. As an industry, we know the combustion temps needed to burn cleanly in a non catalyst equipped wood stove is 1176F. A catalytic equipped stove starts cleaning up emissions at 550F. This part is critical...LOW ON A CAT STOVE IS DIFFERENT THAN LOW ON A NON CATALYST EQUIPPED STOVE. Cat stoves burn exceptionally clean as you slow down the burn rate. This is the result of added residence time of the volatiles passing through the combustor. As an example, the weighted average of one model might be .87 gr/hr, but in the low burn rate (certainly less than 1 kg/hr) the emissions are closer to .59 gr/hr. Step up the burn rate to the high burn rate and with all the gases and volatiles flying through the cat, the emissions are closer to 1.9 gr/hr. What is best about this cat specific attribute is that most wood burners burn stoves on low and medium low for 80% of the time.

Well if you set two stoves side by side, with identical draft and fuel and medium burn rates, the cat equipped stove will provide a nice flame and the non catalyst equipped stove will probably produce a bit better flame. Now you can't make this a blanket statement because some of the cleanest burning non catalyst equipped stoves have by passes and that seems to influence the amount of flame that is observed in medium and higher burn rates.

Non catalyst equipped stove tend to show vastly more flame in THEIR low burn due to the higher temperature requirements. This, to be clear, is not an issue of stove brands, but technology.

I was asked this past week to describe how in our stoves we achieve the longer burn times. If this appears to be a promotion, it may certainly appear that way but read all of this before rushing to any conclusions. When any manufacturer claims "x" burn time, another suggests there is only so much energy in a piece of wood (pound applies as well). This is in fact a true statement. However, there is more to the story....

Specific gravity charts show that all species of wood have varying levels of density. In a large stove that can hold 100lbs of madrone at 20% moisture content, the same stove can hold only 60lbs of cottonwood. These are two extremes, but this adds to the complexity of the fuel we love to burn. Cord wood is not a metered fuel. It inherently burns unevenly and factors such a fuel diameter (surface area exposed to combustion), length, specific gravity, moisture content and so much more can effect a burn.

In an appliance with a manual interface to control this uneven burning nature of our fuel, constant attention by the wood burner can help to extend burn times in a particular load. Simply place a thermocouple about 30" above the stove flue collar and each time their is a temperature change, alter the amount of air that enters the stove so as to "even out" the burn.

In the thermostatically controlled stoves, the aberrations associated with uneven burning are addressed for the consumer. There are some very clever designs on the market and more to come. So long burn times are not magic, but achievable....helping to make cord wood a meter fuel in the way that is it burned.

 

[HarvestMan]

@bkvp: Can you provide some insight into why more manufacturers do NOT use thermostatic control for their wood stoves? I had read somewhere that some thought it was due to the expense required to EPA certify the stoves.

 

[Idahonative]

Ok, let's just start here with a new post...

It's all about burn rate, as defined in kg/hr. As an industry, we know the combustion temps needed to burn cleanly in a non catalyst equipped wood stove is 1176F. A catalytic equipped stove starts cleaning up emissions at 550F. This part is critical...LOW ON A CAT STOVE IS DIFFERENT THAN LOW ON A NON CATALYST EQUIPPED STOVE. Cat stoves burn exceptionally clean as you slow down the burn rate. This is the result of added residence time of the volatiles passing through the combustor. As an example, the weighted average of one model might be .87 gr/hr, but in the low burn rate (certainly less than 1 kg/hr) the emissions are closer to .59 gr/hr. Step up the burn rate to the high burn rate and with all the gases and volatiles flying through the cat, the emissions are closer to 1.9 gr/hr. What is best about this cat specific attribute is that most wood burners burn stoves on low and medium low for 80% of the time.

Well if you set two stoves side by side, with identical draft and fuel and medium burn rates, the cat equipped stove will provide a nice flame and the non catalyst equipped stove will probably produce a bit better flame. Now you can't make this a blanket statement because some of the cleanest burning non catalyst equipped stoves have by passes and that seems to influence the amount of flame that is observed in medium and higher burn rates.

Non catalyst equipped stove tend to show vastly more flame in THEIR low burn due to the higher temperature requirements. This, to be clear, is not an issue of stove brands, but technology.

I was asked this past week to describe how in our stoves we achieve the longer burn times. If this appears to be a promotion, it may certainly appear that way but read all of this before rushing to any conclusions. When any manufacturer claims "x" burn time, another suggests there is only so much energy in a piece of wood (pound applies as well). This is in fact a true statement. However, there is more to the story....

Specific gravity charts show that all species of wood have varying levels of density. In a large stove that can hold 100lbs of madrone at 20% moisture content, the same stove can hold only 60lbs of cottonwood. These are two extremes, but this adds to the complexity of the fuel we love to burn. Cord wood is not a metered fuel. It inherently burns unevenly and factors such a fuel diameter (surface area exposed to combustion), length, specific gravity, moisture content and so much more can effect a burn.

In an appliance with a manual interface to control this uneven burning nature of our fuel, constant attention by the wood burner can help to extend burn times in a particular load. Simply place a thermocouple about 30" above the stove flue collar and each time their is a temperature change, alter the amount of air that enters the stove so as to "even out" the burn.

In the thermostatically controlled stoves, the aberrations associated with uneven burning are addressed for the consumer. There are some very clever designs on the market and more to come. So long burn times are not magic, but achievable....helping to make cord wood a meter fuel in the way that is it burned.

Thank you VP for posting this. Real good information right here when it comes to explaining burn times. This is what owners such as myself know from experience but aren't smart enough to put into words. It frustrates me when a person will say, [there's only so many btu's in a given amount of wood so I'm calling BS on those long burn times]. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's not magic...it's the auto damper. Takes the highs and lows and squeezes them into consistent heat output.

Here's a question for you Chris: Does BK have proprietary rights to the auto damper technology? Maybe a patent? I've always wondered why other companies didn't follow BK's lead in this area. In my opinion, all stoves could benefit from this technology.

And one more if you have time: When my family started heating with wood in 1979, we bought one of the original Earth Stoves. This stove had an auto damper very similar to the current day BK's. I was told that the owner of BK actually split off from Earth Stove back in the late 70's. Is this true? If so, how similar is the auto damper from that Earth Stove vs. modern day BK? They both seem to use a bi metallic coil spring to control the damper (although air delivery location is different).

EDIT: LOL, Sorry HarvestMan, looks like we hit the button at the same time.

 

[bkvp]

It is not easy! I can't provide much more for proprietary reasons, but suffice it to say, the complexity adds to potential certification costs.

@bkvp: Can you provide some insight into why more manufacturers do NOT use thermostatic control for their wood stoves? I had read somewhere that some thought it was due to the expense required to EPA certify the stoves.

 

[bkvp]

Thank you VP for posting this. Real good information right here when it comes to explaining burn times. This is what owners such as myself know from experience but aren't smart enough to put into words. It frustrates me when a person will say, [there's only so many btu's in a given amount of wood so I'm calling BS on those long burn times]. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's not magic...it's the auto damper. Takes the highs and lows and squeezes them into consistent heat output.

Here's a question for you Chris: Does BK have proprietary rights to the auto damper technology? Maybe a patent? I've always wondered why other companies didn't follow BK's lead in this area. In my opinion, all stoves could benefit from this technology.

And one more if you have time: When my family started heating with wood in 1979, we bought one of the original Earth Stoves. This stove had an auto damper very similar to the current day BK's. I was told that the owner of BK actually split off from Earth Stove back in the late 70's. Is this true? If so, how similar is the auto damper from that Earth Stove vs. modern day BK? They both seem to use a bi metallic coil spring to control the damper (although air delivery location is different).

EDIT: LOL, Sorry HarvestMan, looks like we hit the button at the same time.

There is no relationship between Earth stove and Blaze King's founder Hal Larson.

The springs used in early Pre EPA stoves share nothing in common with today's EPA stoves. Much more science is involved.

The next step will probably involve O2 sensors and automatic controls. The secret will be how to accomplish this with our AC power.