Help deciding on Stihl Saw

[Seachaser]

Sounds like you want a 500i.

 

[GrinJe]

Sounds like you want a 500i.

Yeah, you are not wrong. I just kinda need a good business case

It's kinda the heart vs brain case, 300-400 dollars is some money and the additional weight (even though its minor) will make a difference in the long run.

I guess at the end of the day, my biggest question is if the 500i will last as long as a 400/462? From my understanding it is more complicated mechanically, with more electronics and then also more expensive to repair.

What about cutting smaller trees, is there benefit to a 400/462 over 500i? For example speed on chain, ramp up time, etc

The most important: Thanks everyone for the time and advice, I appreciate the effort from everyone.

 

[Hermio]

you should put a 16"-18" on those 61cc saws and the 25" on the 044, It will wake them up

same advice, put a 16" .325 setup on that 261 and wake it up

Everywhere I look guys are putting the longest bar possible on saws and it slows them way down, yea the saw can pull it but its like putting a 5th wheel hitch in the bed of a 1/4 ton pickup truck with granny gears. I know a guy with a mountain of modern strato saws parts because they all came with the longest bar suggested by the manufacturer as requested by the purchaser. They were adjusted as rich as possible but it was not enough with limiter caps in place resulting in scored pistons and cylinders after making repeated full length bar cuts. It really is crippling that they are all equipped with super stingy bar oil pumps because more and more models are being designed to use thinner kerf chains/bars so a longer bar can be equipped on a weaker powerhead. "bar size sells saws to consumers not displacement"

That is why I normally use a 20" bar on my 500i. Sure, it can handle a longer one, but I usually don't need a longer one to cut firewood. And the shorter bar cuts faster, and I don't need to tighten the chain as often.

 

[gggGary]

Reread your use case; you'll wish you bought the 400 and the 261 is prolly the best fit. Interested in hearing your thoughts after running the 500 for a while.

 

[Hermio]

Reread your use case; you'll wish you bought the 400 and the 261 is prolly the best fit. Interested in hearing your thoughts after running the 500 for a while.

I will just throw in my experience. I had a 441C and replaced it with a 500i. The performance difference was even greater than the Hp figures would suggest. Though my run time per tank is only about 35 minutes with the 500i versus 45 minutes with the 441C, I actually cut 10-15% more wood in that 35 minutes than I could with the 441C in 45 minutes. This, by the way, means more wood cut per unit of fuel used. That means it is actually more fuel efficient, when measured in terms of results rather than consumption per time. I think those who think the 500i is fuel hungry are not evaluating that correctly. I think the correct measure would be more like cords of wood cut per gallon.

 

[computeruser]

I really like the 400 and think it is the saw you want. Lighter and more nimble is a good thing. It makes plenty of power.

Can you get it with heated handles there? That might be a consideration.

 

[GrinJe]

I really like the 400 and think it is the saw you want. Lighter and more nimble is a good thing. It makes plenty of power.

Can you get it with heated handles there? That might be a consideration.

No, unfortunately we only have the 400 c-m version, i think if it was with heated and 100 dollars cheaper I would not even hesitate.

 

[Hermio]

No, unfortunately we only have the 400 c-m version, i think if it was with heated and 100 dollars cheaper I would not even hesitate.

The 400 weighs 12.8 # and puts out 5.4 Hp. The 500i weighs 13.9# and puts out 6.7 Hp. So, for 1.1 lb or 8.5% more powerhead weight, you get 24% more power. Cost aside, it might be worth considering which would fatigue you less, based on productivity gains. That is, getting the job done faster so you don't have to carry the saw as long.

 

[computeruser]

The 400 weighs 12.8 # and puts out 5.4 Hp. The 500i weighs 13.9# and puts out 6.7 Hp. So, for 1.1 lb or 8.5% more powerhead weight, you get 24% more power. Cost aside, it might be worth considering which would fatigue you less, based on productivity gains. That is, getting the job done faster so you don't have to carry the saw as long.

That analysis isn’t always true, though, or we would all run the biggest and most powerful saw in order to get done “faster.” But we don’t.

I’ve run those two side by side. They are different creatures. I wouldn’t want a 500i as my only saw or primary saw, but could do OK with a 400 in that role. Now my cutting is 0-24” hardwood with occasional examples up to 36”, so if you’re in different wood then yeah, your mileage may differ. But I think OP is in smaller stuff 20” or less, mostly conifers and birch I would guess, and for that I’d probably want the 400/16” as my primary for falling and limbing and bucking into firewood.

 

[computeruser]

No, unfortunately we only have the 400 c-m version, i think if it was with heated and 100 dollars cheaper I would not even hesitate.

That’s a shame. That saw with heat would be really neat. 562xpg would be the next best alternative then.

I’ve really enjoyed the time I have had on the 572. It feels solid and is really the only saw I would like to add to the stable. It weighs more than the 400, of source, but it feels good in the cut and balances well. Same with the 592 if you need more power/longer bar. Prefer both to the way the 500i cuts and the way the powerband feels, though it is no slouch for sure.

Interestingly, the 500i has cut times essentially identical to an early red top Dolmar 7900 circa 2004-2006 or so, which I thought curious. But I digress.

 

[Hermio]

That analysis isn’t always true, though, or we would all run the biggest and most powerful saw in order to get done “faster.” But we don’t.

I’ve run those two side by side. They are different creatures. I wouldn’t want a 500i as my only saw or primary saw, but could do OK with a 400 in that role. Now my cutting is 0-24” hardwood with occasional examples up to 36”, so if you’re in different wood then yeah, your mileage may differ. But I think OP is in smaller stuff 20” or less, mostly conifers and birch I would guess, and for that I’d probably want the 400/16” as my primary for falling and limbing and bucking into firewood.

No, we would not all run the biggest saw. For example, the weight of an 880 would tire most of us out if we used it for bucking firewood. But I think most of us would like as much power as we can get in a saw that is light enough for all around work. I understand that more power does not always equate to faster cutting. It depends on chain speed, and a larger saw does not necessarily have a higher chain speed than a smaller one when it is in wood that either saw could handle. That has been demonstrated in a few You-tube videos where a 500i cut faster than a 660 in wood less than 18" diameter. I am sure the 660 would beat the 500i in larger wood with, say, a 36" bar fully buried. What I can say is that, in my wood, which is all hardwood (mostly oaks with a smattering of hickory, walnut, ash, cherry and beech), the 500i cuts much faster than my 441C used to, using a 20" bar. The biggest size I will buck for firewood is 24", using a 25" bar. Yes, I know you can cut double the bar length, but it is more convenient to do it all from one side. The 441C, by the way, was more powerful than some of the other saws suggested here. I am basically on a single saw plan, though I also have a Kobalt electric. Previous saws included the 441C, an 038 Super, and some nondescript Remington and Echo saws. I am just a tree farm owner. I do not cut for a living. But I like nice tools.

 

[GrinJe]

That’s a shame. That saw with heat would be really neat. 562xpg would be the next best alternative then.

I’ve really enjoyed the time I have had on the 572. It feels solid and is really the only saw I would like to add to the stable. It weighs more than the 400, of source, but it feels good in the cut and balances well. Same with the 592 if you need more power/longer bar. Prefer both to the way the 500i cuts and the way the powerband feels, though it is no slouch for sure.

Interestingly, the 500i has cut times essentially identical to an early red top Dolmar 7900 circa 2004-2006 or so, which I thought curious. But I digress.

Yeah, problem for me is that the price for a 572 XPG, we are already at a cost level above 562 C-M VW. (chain and bar on both options). And then i kinda feel 462 is more bang for the buck. I do agree i feel husky is super stable, just not as exiting for me personally. My dad is a big husky guy, but he mostly run small stuff.

Also another problem is that 562 XPG is sold out because of the markII coming soon, and when it comes it will be more expensive than a 400 I'm 100% sure.

 

[fields_mj]

No, we would not all run the biggest saw. For example, the weight of an 880 would tire most of us out if we used it for bucking firewood. But I think most of us would like as much power as we can get in a saw that is light enough for all around work. I understand that more power does not always equate to faster cutting. It depends on chain speed, and a larger saw does not necessarily have a higher chain speed than a smaller one when it is in wood that either saw could handle. That has been demonstrated in a few You-tube videos where a 500i cut faster than a 660 in wood less than 18" diameter. I am sure the 660 would beat the 500i in larger wood with, say, a 36" bar fully buried. What I can say is that, in my wood, which is all hardwood (mostly oaks with a smattering of hickory, walnut, ash, cherry and beech), the 500i cuts much faster than my 441C used to, using a 20" bar. The biggest size I will buck for firewood is 24", using a 25" bar. Yes, I know you can cut double the bar length, but it is more convenient to do it all from one side. The 441C, by the way, was more powerful than some of the other saws suggested here. I am basically on a single saw plan, though I also have a Kobalt electric. Previous saws included the 441C, an 038 Super, and some nondescript Remington and Echo saws. I am just a tree farm owner. I do not cut for a living. But I like nice tools.

You are both saying essentially the same thing. Bigger can be better, but there comes a point where the extra weight, TQ, and HP are not getting you anything but tired. The OP gave 20" as being on the big side for what he cuts, which means 80% or more is probably in the 16" range. Regardless, 20" isn't a long bar if you're running it on anything over 50cc. In fact, on a 70cc saw, a 20" bar is short. On a 75-80cc saw, a 20" bar is really short. There are things you can do to your chain when you sharpen it to take advantage of using it on a powerhead that's oversized which will make for a faster cutting setup, and that may be something worth exploring for you, but I see no reason to ever put a 20" bar on anything bigger than a 400. A 500i might be a frog hair faster, but that extra 1.1 lb of weight will most certainly wear you out faster as well.

Also, a 16" bar will easily cut through a 20" log without having to walk around to the other side. Put the saw on top of the log and rotate it down so it's cutting the back side, and then work it around to the front. Easy peasey.

The biggest thing that's missing from most of this conversation is that the OP wants to go from an 8lb 1.5hp saw to a saw that' weighs around 13 lbs, and has somewhere between 5.4hp and 6.7hp, all to cut firewood that maxes out at 20" in diameter. That's NOT a good idea. Start off with an 11 lb 4.5hp MS261 with a 16" bar. It will be a HUGE step up from what you're currently using, and its still light enough to run all day long, even when you're only used to running something that weighs less than 8 lbs. Once you have a cutting season behind the 261, reassess whether you need anything bigger or not.

 

[Hermio]

You are both saying essentially the same thing. Bigger can be better, but there comes a point where the extra weight, TQ, and HP are not getting you anything but tired. The OP gave 20" as being on the big side for what he cuts, which means 80% or more is probably in the 16" range. Regardless, 20" isn't a long bar if you're running it on anything over 50cc. In fact, on a 70cc saw, a 20" bar is short. On a 75-80cc saw, a 20" bar is really short. There are things you can do to your chain when you sharpen it to take advantage of using it on a powerhead that's oversized which will make for a faster cutting setup, and that may be something worth exploring for you, but I see no reason to ever put a 20" bar on anything bigger than a 400. A 500i might be a frog hair faster, but that extra 1.1 lb of weight will most certainly wear you out faster as well.

Also, a 16" bar will easily cut through a 20" log without having to walk around to the other side. Put the saw on top of the log and rotate it down so it's cutting the back side, and then work it around to the front. Easy peasey.

The biggest thing that's missing from most of this conversation is that the OP wants to go from an 8lb 1.5hp saw to a saw that' weighs around 13 lbs, and has somewhere between 5.4hp and 6.7hp, all to cut firewood that maxes out at 20" in diameter. That's NOT a good idea. Start off with an 11 lb 4.5hp MS261 with a 16" bar. It will be a HUGE step up from what you're currently using, and its still light enough to run all day long, even when you're only used to running something that weighs less than 8 lbs. Once you have a cutting season behind the 261, reassess whether you need anything bigger or not.

You make some good points. But I would observe that longer bars always slow the saw down somewhat, as there is more friction from the chain. However, on the 500i, I did not notice the difference between 20" and 25" bars in terms of cutting speed. I started years ago with saws much less powerful. But each time I went up in power, the cutting speed increased, even though I was mostly cutting wood in the 12-18" range, with occasional excursions in the 24" range. I have used 18" to 20" bars most of the time. I will say that the 500i cuts more wood in its 35-minute run time on a tank than my previous 441C did in its 45-minute run time, so I am still getting more productivity out of the power increase. And that makes it less fatiguing to use; I finish my cutting for the day sooner. (Yes, I cut by a volume goal. My usual routine is to cut a cord, then pick it up and stack it in the round for a couple of years before splitting. Now you know why I don't often go for the really big rounds!) As an aside, not on topic but perhaps useful, I use the Stihl RS chain, sharpened with the Pferd 2 in 1. Sharpened that way, it cuts faster than a new chain out of the box. I have not measured it, but I suspect the rakers are filed down a bit lower than stock, removing more chip volume but also making the saw a bit grabby. That can be annoying sometimes, as it has a tendency to throw the ~2" round branches violently into my shins! At least my chaps provide some padding!

 

[fields_mj]

You make some good points. But I would observe that longer bars always slow the saw down somewhat, as there is more friction from the chain. However, on the 500i, I did not notice the difference between 20" and 25" bars in terms of cutting speed. I started years ago with saws much less powerful. But each time I went up in power, the cutting speed increased, even though I was mostly cutting wood in the 12-18" range, with occasional excursions in the 24" range. I have used 18" to 20" bars most of the time. I will say that the 500i cuts more wood in its 35-minute run time on a tank than my previous 441C did in its 45-minute run time, so I am still getting more productivity out of the power increase. And that makes it less fatiguing to use; I finish my cutting for the day sooner. (Yes, I cut by a volume goal. My usual routine is to cut a cord, then pick it up and stack it in the round for a couple of years before splitting. Now you know why I don't often go for the really big rounds!) As an aside, not on topic but perhaps useful, I use the Stihl RS chain, sharpened with the Pferd 2 in 1. Sharpened that way, it cuts faster than a new chain out of the box. I have not measured it, but I suspect the rakers are filed down a bit lower than stock, removing more chip volume but also making the saw a bit grabby. That can be annoying sometimes, as it has a tendency to throw the ~2" round branches violently into my shins! At least my chaps provide some padding!

That's exactly right. Longer bars eat a lot of HP, and dropping the rakers will let you make a use of a small bar on a big saw, but you better hang on to that saw with both hands because it pulls hard and grabs limbs even harder.

For the OP, if you get an MS400, I'd actually run an 18" bar with a 9 pin .325 rim with full comp full chisel chain and drop the rakers to around .035" That setup would eat firewood like a puppy in a bag of treats. I run my 036 saws set up similar to this, and they work great for bucking. I also have a G660 with a DP muffler that's been opened up inside, and has been retuned to run around 13k. It normally wears a 28" bar with .404 chain. I can lean on it as hard as I want, and I can't bog it down. It gives nothing up to a similarly equipped 066. On wood under 16", its not any faster than my 036. The reason I don't have a 24" or 20" bar for it is because, while it may be faster, if I'm running it all day, it wears me out too fast. Sometimes, I'm only running a saw long enough to burn a single tank of fuel. For that small amount of time, I don't mind the extra weight of my big saw. Other times, I'm working for 10 to 12 hrs at a time. I may have my big saw with me on those days, but I avoid running it unless I really need to. Much easier to run a 10-12 lb powerhead all day than a 16 lb powerhead for half a day.

 

[StihlsawuserMS361]

I will just throw in my experience. I had a 441C and replaced it with a 500i. The performance difference was even greater than the Hp figures would suggest. Though my run time per tank is only about 35 minutes with the 500i versus 45 minutes with the 441C, I actually cut 10-15% more wood in that 35 minutes than I could with the 441C in 45 minutes. This, by the way, means more wood cut per unit of fuel used. That means it is actually more fuel efficient, when measured in terms of results rather than consumption per time. I think those who think the 500i is fuel hungry are not evaluating that correctly. I think the correct measure would be more like cords of wood cut per gallon.

I agree with Hermio
What I read about the 500I was the same. Still bought it, why not? Then I actually paid attention of what I cut per tank. I do like my 361 for much smaller logs sometimes, but the 500 really cuts. Recently dropped a 30+" diameter ash with a 25" lite. Not a lightsaber, but close.

 

[chainbrake]

Yeah, problem for me is that the price for a 572 XPG, we are already at a cost level above 562 C-M VW. (chain and bar on both options). And then i kinda feel 462 is more bang for the buck. I do agree i feel husky is super stable, just not as exiting for me personally. My dad is a big husky guy, but he mostly run small stuff.

Also another problem is that 562 XPG is sold out because of the markII coming soon, and when it comes it will be more expensive than a 400 I'm 100% sure.

• Hi GrinJe,
  I think I have read all of the replies to your post. I have not seen these questions asked:
  • Will you be felling? and what is the diameter of the average tree you will be felling?
  • What is the smallest diameter (limb or log) you cut for firewood?
  • Do you have any trees larger than 20" that you will be taking down?
  • What species of wood are you cutting?
  • If you are having logs delivered and, therefore, just bucking (and not limbing), what diameter are the logs?
  • Do you buck your logs from a pile, or separately on the ground or on a landing?
  • How many cords of wood per year do you cut?
  • Are you in good physical shape?
• All of those questions go into my choice of a saw.
  A full day for an experienced operator who is in good physical condition is 5-6 hours. Now that I am nearly 70 years of age, a full day for me is 3-5 hours - depending on the trees, the temp and the terrain. I fell, buck and split about 15-20 cords of mixed wood a year. Depending upon temperature, terrain and distance from my vehicle, I can fell, buck and haul out 1-1.5 cords of hardwood - maybe 2 cords of softwood in a big day. Most days, I am happy to get a cord of wood to my splitter and split it as I go, pulling blocks off the bed of my pickup truck straight to the splitter. I used to have a 261. If all of my trees were <= 20", I'd be very happy using a 261 with 2 bars: 16" and 20". I have a 400 and I like it a great deal, but I generally use my 2 smaller/lighter saws when I can.

 

[Hermio]

• Hi GrinJe,
  I think I have read all of the replies to your post. I have not seen these questions asked:
  • Will you be felling? and what is the diameter of the average tree you will be felling?
  • What is the smallest diameter (limb or log) you cut for firewood?
  • Do you have any trees larger than 20" that you will be taking down?
  • What species of wood are you cutting?
  • If you are having logs delivered and, therefore, just bucking (and not limbing), what diameter are the logs?
  • Do you buck your logs from a pile, or separately on the ground or on a landing?
  • How many cords of wood per year do you cut?
  • Are you in good physical shape?
• All of those questions go into my choice of a saw.
  A full day for an experienced operator who is in good physical condition is 5-6 hours. Now that I am nearly 70 years of age, a full day for me is 3-5 hours - depending on the trees, the temp and the terrain. I fell, buck and split about 15-20 cords of mixed wood a year. Depending upon temperature, terrain and distance from my vehicle, I can fell, buck and haul out 1-1.5 cords of hardwood - maybe 2 cords of softwood in a big day. Most days, I am happy to get a cord of wood to my splitter and split it as I go, pulling blocks off the bed of my pickup truck straight to the splitter. I used to have a 261. If all of my trees were <= 20", I'd be very happy using a 261 with 2 bars: 16" and 20". I have a 400 and I like it a great deal, but I generally use my 2 smaller/lighter saws when I can.

Good points. A person's physical condition is paramount. I am just a bit older than you, but I pump iron as well as do cardio 3 times per week. I think that helps me with my wood cutting, though I only do about 6 cords per year. Most of what I cut is stuff that naturally falls or leftover tops from timber harvesting. I will fell some unhealthy trees but most of what I do is bucking. My usual cut range is 2" to 18", with a few logs around 24". I cut them 20-22" long. I do not split as I go. I pile up the rounds and let them season for 2 years before splitting. That makes the splitting easier; I can almost always split them with my 20 ton electric splitter. I normally do not buck trees in the woods. I drag them out to a field with my tractor, which makes the cutting safer, as I rarely have anyone with me when I am bucking. In general, I will use 2-3 tanks of fuel in a day to cut about 1 cord. That puts me at a bit more than 1.5 hours cutting time. Then I load the wood and take it to the pile, which takes a couple more hours. I limit my cutting time that way so I am not fatigued during the cutting. I definitely get fatigued from loading the big rounds and stacking them! To me, it is a safety issue. I don't like to saw when I am getting tired. That makes for bad judgement. If I have bad judgement while loading the rounds, the consequences are less of a safety issue than when I am sawing. I do like my 500i more than any of my previous saws or any I have borrowed or rented. I definitely feel less fatigued while using it. I have not used a 261. I had an 038 Super once, which is slightly more powerful than the 261. I think it might have been heavier than the 261. In any case, the 500i is actually lighter than the 038, so that contributes to lower fatigue. However, I think it is heavier than the 261. Maybe I will get a 261 if I ever decline enough to find the 500i to be too much for me. More likely, that is when I will stop cutting firewood.

 

[chainbrake]

Good points. A person's physical condition is paramount. I am just a bit older than you, but I pump iron as well as do cardio 3 times per week. I think that helps me with my wood cutting, though I only do about 6 cords per year. Most of what I cut is stuff that naturally falls or leftover tops from timber harvesting. I will fell some unhealthy trees but most of what I do is bucking. My usual cut range is 2" to 18", with a few logs around 24". I cut them 20-22" long. I do not split as I go. I pile up the rounds and let them season for 2 years before splitting. That makes the splitting easier; I can almost always split them with my 20 ton electric splitter. I normally do not buck trees in the woods. I drag them out to a field with my tractor, which makes the cutting safer, as I rarely have anyone with me when I am bucking. In general, I will use 2-3 tanks of fuel in a day to cut about 1 cord. That puts me at a bit more than 1.5 hours cutting time. Then I load the wood and take it to the pile, which takes a couple more hours. I limit my cutting time that way so I am not fatigued during the cutting. I definitely get fatigued from loading the big rounds and stacking them! To me, it is a safety issue. I don't like to saw when I am getting tired. That makes for bad judgement. If I have bad judgement while loading the rounds, the consequences are less of a safety issue than when I am sawing. I do like my 500i more than any of my previous saws or any I have borrowed or rented. I definitely feel less fatigued while using it. I have not used a 261. I had an 038 Super once, which is slightly more powerful than the 261. I think it might have been heavier than the 261. In any case, the 500i is actually lighter than the 038, so that contributes to lower fatigue. However, I think it is heavier than the 261. Maybe I will get a 261 if I ever decline enough to find the 500i to be too much for me. More likely, that is when I will stop cutting firewood.

Yes, Hermio, I stay in shape in other ways than doing firewood. I am a small time general contractor (light commercial and residential). I like doing the carpentry and masonry, so I am always involved in that stage. I'll do the other work too if the job is small or if subcontractors cannot be coaxed in a timely fashion. I'm 5'9" and weigh about 160 lbs. If I were a larger person, holding the bigger saws out in front of me wouldn't be quite as difficult I imagine, but I don't need the big saws to fill my needs. As it is, between lifting the wood and lifting the saw, I get good core exercise to go along with the construction work. Like you, I don't run my saw when fatigue sets in.

 

[stihltech]

• Hi GrinJe,
  I think I have read all of the replies to your post. I have not seen these questions asked:
  • Will you be felling? and what is the diameter of the average tree you will be felling?
  • What is the smallest diameter (limb or log) you cut for firewood?
  • Do you have any trees larger than 20" that you will be taking down?
  • What species of wood are you cutting?
  • If you are having logs delivered and, therefore, just bucking (and not limbing), what diameter are the logs?
  • Do you buck your logs from a pile, or separately on the ground or on a landing?
  • How many cords of wood per year do you cut?
  • Are you in good physical shape?
• All of those questions go into my choice of a saw.
  A full day for an experienced operator who is in good physical condition is 5-6 hours. Now that I am nearly 70 years of age, a full day for me is 3-5 hours - depending on the trees, the temp and the terrain. I fell, buck and split about 15-20 cords of mixed wood a year. Depending upon temperature, terrain and distance from my vehicle, I can fell, buck and haul out 1-1.5 cords of hardwood - maybe 2 cords of softwood in a big day. Most days, I am happy to get a cord of wood to my splitter and split it as I go, pulling blocks off the bed of my pickup truck straight to the splitter. I used to have a 261. If all of my trees were <= 20", I'd be very happy using a 261 with 2 bars: 16" and 20". I have a 400 and I like it a great deal, but I generally use my 2 smaller/lighter saws when I can.

Finally, someone addressed the issue!