Help for Novice Splitter

[63012753]

I enjoy reading your forums about all the topics. I'm a new OWB and have an International 656 Hydromatic 6 cylinder gas utility tractor with live hydraulics and a bucket. I purchased a used 3-point splitter to obviously split my wood each year. It operated a little slow but did the job last year even thought there appeared to not be enough hydraulic pressure to kick out the automatic return valve. opcorn:

Now I'm looking to upgrade it to a PTO operated hydraulic system to run off the same tractor. In other words I want a little more speed and pressure and should be able to get that out of my PTO if I convert it to a PTO system.

I have a local welder that will do some work for me at a very reasonable price.

I have a couple questions that maybe some of you can help answer:

1) What is the best hydraulic pump by make and GPH to complete the conversion being I know nothing about GPH and tank volume and size. In reading various information the larger the pump the larger the tank. You guys that have been doing this for some time should be able to make some recommendations.

2) Where is the best place to purchase a hydraulic pump, tank, filter, etc. that won't break my arms, legs, and wallet being I live in Wisconsin? Are there any websites that have this stuff available?

 

[ericjeeper]

Put a 6-12 horse gas motor on it

Stop wasting fuel in that tractor..
Back in tha day we used to have a 350 farmall utility. It would use 20 gallons of fuel to rake a field of hay. Now days our same horsepower diesels will do it on five or less gallons. For the money you are about to spend to retrofit that 3 point splitter.. Just mount an engine to a 11 gpm pump and be done with it..\
I too have a 3 point splitter leaning up in the barn. I have not used it but one time and decided it was way way to slow.. I have thought about using it on our 30 horse tractor. By plumbing in to the auxiliary pump that runs the loader. But I have not done that yet.
WkPoor has a nicely set up 3 point splitter

 

[Tim321]

IH hydraulics

The pressure is set by the bypass valve not the pump. You should hear a wining noise when the lever is pull but nothing is moving, this is oil going though the bypass valve. You can buy a higher pressure valve from the IH backhoe tractors and just screw it in. If it is the pump you can replace with a higher flow pump from case. This will help with the loader too.

 

[63012753]

Good Information

I appreciate the IH information. I did not know that could be done ie., increasing the pump size.

I've also considered coverting the 3-point to a stand alone splitter but again don't know pump sizing/GPM etc.

Keeping the feedback coming. I really appreciate the help.

 

[wkpoor]

I have some experience with PTO setups. The one I have is very fast,strong and on a diesel tractor not to bad on fuel. In fact if you consider the speed an productivity its probably as good or better than a Briggs 5.5. And with 60PTO HP to power it there is no 2nd stage to slow you down in any wood.
Surplus Center is a good place for hydraulic components. All the fittings I got at McMaster Carr. You can buy the pump direct from Prince. Hoses from a local hose shop.

 

[crashagn]

We also have a 656 hydro utility. Its got the inline 6 cyl. Has a freeman loader on it. For what we use it for i couldnt ask anything more from it in terms of reliability. When we 1st got the tractor we replaced all of the loader hyd. hoses. We have had a few return hoses bust thats coming from under the seat and also fractured 1 metal line due to vibration but we did get that solved. I was looking into a higher pressure pump and such to get the loader moving a bit faster but decided against it mainly becouse of the swept back front end. Dont wanna start fixing it. So far since we have had the tracotr we gotten a 16ft spring tooth finisher, a single bottom potato plow (took off the plow and put on a chisel shank for rippin up a old gravel drive) and also a 200 gal water tank for the new trees. Like i said the tractor is perfect for what we do except.. THE FUEL. I have never seen something drink so much gas!!! 1 tank of fuel will last a good day and thats it and it gets expensive. I was thinking of getting a 3 point splittor but couldnt justify it with the fuel usage. If maybe you used some type of a high volume high pressure pto driven pump then maybe it might help better if you was able to run the tractor at a lower rpm..

 

[cabinman]

Whoa

I appreciate the IH information. I did not know that could be done ie., increasing the pump size.

I've also considered coverting the 3-point to a stand alone splitter but again don't know pump sizing/GPM etc.

Keeping the feedback coming. I really appreciate the help.

Ill be the third one to post on the fact of that series engine, basicaly the same as the 560 farmall, great tractors but suck fuel big time,..and If you are thinking of spending money to up grade the pump,...you better seriousely consider going to a small engine and a 2 stage pump,..If you were using a late model diesel Id think differently, But that gas hog will cost you serious cash money, and spending money on a pump update would be better spent on a engine pump update,..

 

[wkpoor]

The prince 540 pump will give good volume at low power setiings. The best setup would be the 1000 rpm pto 40gpm model if you had a tractor with the 1000rpm pto but the 21gpm does great in its self. I ran that setup on an Allis Chalmers CA for 2 yrs prior to moving over to the Deere. It ran good at about 1/3 throttle setting. Fuel consumption was tolerable.

 

[cabinman]

Rpm

The prince 540 pump will give good volume at low power setiings. The best setup would be the 1000 rpm pto 40gpm model if you had a tractor with the 1000rpm pto but the 21gpm does great in its self. I ran that setup on an Allis Chalmers CA for 2 yrs prior to moving over to the Deere. It ran good at about 1/3 throttle setting. Fuel consumption was tolerable.

The 656 is a 540 pto, @ 1/3 throttle its twisting the pump @ 180 rpm,..Thats not going to flow much oil, Eric

 

[wkpoor]

On the Deere I rarely run 1500rpm and the Ram sped is great. More often its 1200rpm. PTO rpm on the Deere is 2400rpm. Basically I never run my unit at rated pto rpm and its 2-3 times faster than a Briggs powered unit. Then factor in no 2nd stage slow down.

 

[cabinman]

Pto Rpm

On the Deere I rarely run 1500rpm and the Ram sped is great. More often its 1200rpm. PTO rpm on the Deere is 2400rpm. Basically I never run my unit at rated pto rpm and its 2-3 times faster than a Briggs powered unit. Then factor in no 2nd stage slow down.

I sence u are getting defencive,..First I want you 2 know I REALLY like your build,...But I need more accurate numbers, especially the PTO RPMS,..are u saying your deere has a PTO turning @ 2400 RPMs???? Thats what Iam reading,...Please explain how you are getting 2400 RPMS out of your deere,?...Eric,

 

[tanker]

Personaly,I'd rather put the hours on a 400-500$ small engine than I would my 10-20000$ tractor and the fact that I can hook to the splitter and go places with it that I don't have to either drive the tractor or load it and haul it to.It's a to each his own kind of thing but growing up and living on the farm all my life,I still don't like to run something if I can get away without it.

 

[flewism]

I completely agree with tanker

 

[ericjeeper]

I will answer for him

I sence u are getting defencive,..First I want you 2 know I REALLY like your build,...But I need more accurate numbers, especially the PTO RPMS,..are u saying your deere has a PTO turning @ 2400 RPMs???? Thats what Iam reading,...Please explain how you are getting 2400 RPMS out of your deere,?...Eric,

He is saying that 2400 engine RPMs his tractor PTO is 540 RPMS
Most diesels are pretty close to that .

 

[cabinman]

Pto

He is saying that 2400 engine RPMs his tractor PTO is 540 RPMS
Most diesels are pretty close to that .

Yea thats got to be right, I think he must be talkin about a line on his tack saying pto and its at the 2400 rpm mark, Thanks Eric

 

[Hedge]

Here has been one of my first choices to look for splitter supplies. http://www.surpluscenter.com/ I have gotten a tank, pump, valve and cylinder from them and have been completely happy with it all..
I would have to admit that the fuel efficiency of a gas tractor would lead me to a small BS or Honda motor for your splitter. The other consideration that led me to how I set up my splitter was this. If I wanted to go several miles from home on a cold day I wouldn't have to plug in one of my diesel's and road that tractor in the cold. Most of the time I can cut what I want and go back on a day when it is a more convenient and do more to make the trip worth the trip.. If you are going to just split at home the tractor deal wouldn't be all that bad. Besides if you are splitting for a OWB you are not likely to be splitting as much as someone like myself that is trying to fit wood in an indoor add on furnace. A thought comes to mind if you would make it a small engine powered unit and let it be a 3 pt unit you can haul it around and if you really needed you could arrange the hyd hoses to be quick disconnected and still run of the tractor if the small engine was down some day when you wanted to split. Plus you would have the tractor to move brush and such if you needed it. Good luck..

 

[wkpoor]

Thanks Eric for clearing up those muddy waters I stirred up about the PTO stuff. The word I left out was rated which I assume everyone understood all standard PTO's are 540 rated. Its the engine RPM I thought was the concern. My tractor even has a 540e that is 1700RPM engine.
I read some really good concerns and all were considered by me when I decided to build that unit. I had used the conventional tow behind splitter for about 4yrs prior to building the 3pt model.
Yes we considered fuel/transportability/wear and tear on the tractor. For me it boiled down to whats my time worth. Also I never split away from home. I bring it all to my place in log form or cut down ready to split.I also gather most within a mile of my place in areas you can't drive a truck anyway. I have a few times pulled a trailer to the woods behind the splitter and split right to the trailer and when I got back to the house the trailer was ready to go to the customers place without extra handling. Basically everyone who has ever split with me said they just hate using a tow behind after splitting on mine.
Of course it wasn't their $20,000 tractor or fuel they where using.LolololoHehehehe

 

[wkpoor]

I am going down to the neighbors this after noon and I'll try and get some numbers. PTO RPM vs ram speed vs same cylinder setup ram speed using Briggs 5.5.
The Briggs uses a tank every 45mins at full throttle.

 

[wkpoor]

I timed the PTO unit today. At full rated PTO it is 7sec cycle time. Quite frankly that is way too fast considering on a hydraulic splitter I usually work in about a 6" zone of travel. Therefor its more like a second or 2 unless the piece requires full stroke to separate. Even then its still somewhere around 4-5 seconds per split worst case.
On a random pile of wood big and small tough and easy I'll bet I can beat the SS splitter considering I always get through the first time and can go vertical on the ones I can't lift. I think a split off would be interesting.

 

[63012753]

Tank Sizing

Thanks for all the answers. I am now starting to lean toward putting the money into converting it to a stand alone unit with a small gas engine. I'm still baffled on sizing of the hydraulic reservoir tank to the pump. Do you have to have a tank size that equals the GPM of the pump? In other words as an example if I set up a 11GPM pump do I have to have a 11 gallon or larger tank? Also if I convert to a small gas engine what is the best GPM pump size to get for power, speed, and efficiency?

Everyones help is appreciated.