Help me diagnose a MS201TC running issue please

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The complaint was that the saw would quit in the cut. The tech had ordered the white cable that attaches to the side of the carb, in to the round thing, solenoid I assume,that fits in to the hole in the side of the carb, and then to the connector going out the front of the carb box. I can't get in touch with him and do not know his thinking. I replaced it as he intended.

Anyhow, the saw will start and run fine. Then about the time I get behind the shop to make a cut or two for testing it cuts off. It will run after you choke it for a few seconds and then act like it runs out of fuel.

I tried it again a little later and it seemed to run and idle fine again until about the time I got behind the shop. Then it cut off again and would only seem to run as long as whatever fuel was choked in to it was available.

Help me understand these. Please.
 
I went through the 90 second idle period which according to the internet anyway is supposed to reset the processor. It idles perfectly.

I put it in a stick of wood and it cut perfectly, plenty of power, for 5 or 6 seconds. Then it cut off just like you turned the switch off.

So, would seem it has to be the solenoid or the processor itself telling the solenoid to close.

Anybody have a suspicion ?
 
OK . Little more info.

I took the saw out this AM and cutting some 6 inch or so dry red oak. The saw would make five or six cuts then cut off.

It would immediately restart , idle perfectly, and I could make maybe six or seven cuts and it would cut off.

Start again immediately and idle perfectly, and so on.

Has me bumfuzzled.
 
Well, it was not the solenoid. Still runs great for about 30 seconds and cuts off in the cut. Will immediately restart and repeat.

I'm starting to get a bad feeling about this.

Something is telling it to cut off.

If it is not the coil what else could it be ? Is there not a sensor on the cylinder ?
 
Tank vent clogged?

Could be I suppose. But, it doesn't stutter, slow down, or anything. Just cuts off like a switch.

The owner had replaced the handle, but looking at the shorting contacts in the handle I don't see any way that they could vibrate together.

I'll check the tank vent tomorrow.

Appreciate any ideas.
 
MS201 M-Tronics are renown for failing fuel solenoids. Brad is right to suspect it because that is what the trouble often is. Stihl now has a solenoid valve test routine that should be performed in addition to pulling the data from the module. The fuel trim numbers will tell you what the module is doing to try to keep the motor running properly. The low fuel trim value is typically around 40-45. If you encounter a value down around 30, it tells you that the M-Tronic is cutting back fuel supply (or at least trying to) because it senses the motor is running too rich. Newer modules are "locked" at a minimum high fuel trim of 45. Anything below 45 on high trim is potentially problematic. Stihl has had quality issues with the solenoid valves- there is a new style coming out that is more durable. The M-Tronic diagnostic looks for electrical problems- it will not detect a mechanical problem. Often a mechanical problem will affect the fuel trim numbers and needs to be recognized as such. The new solenoid test looks for pressure leakage that is indicative of a failing solenoid. I don't say "failed" until it fails completely. These "failing" solenoids will leak a little fuel and cause running issues. A leaking solenoid will pass the M-Tronic electrical test, but will fail the new pressure test. If your saw has a solenoid issue, be sure you and your dealer know that the solenoid has a 3 year warranty because it is an emissions device.
M-Tronic is a very dependable engine management system, but it isn't foolproof. A mechanical problem will screw up an M-Tronic saw just like it'll do to a conventional carbureted saw. Has your dealer pulled the data off the module? It won't always tell you what the problem is, but it will help rule-in or rule-out problems. A troublesome tank vent will still cause the saw to die, M-Tronic or not. I'd take a good look at the wires within the handle- the post said that the owner had replaced the handle. The M-Tronic wires are small and delicate- they're easily damaged. I would also recommend putting a Stihl ZAT-4 spark tester on the unit and the M-Tronic testing side cover along with the bar and chain. Go cut with the saw and watch the spark. Does it disappear when the saw begins to die, or does it continue until the engine slows down to the electronic low cutoff RPM? Has anyone checked the fuel filter, fuel hose, and carb inlet screen? Any of these can cause a shutting off issue.
I work on 2 or 3 M-Tronic saws per day and I'm seeing fewer and fewer REAL M-Tronic problems. The new generation of locked modules have solved almost all of the lean running problems. I hope that the new ceramic? solenoid valves are more robust than what's out there right now. I'm an old guy who still uses my trusty 028WB on a weekly basis, but my 3 year old MS261 CMZ is starting to win me over. M-Tronic and other electronic engine management systems are going to be around for the foreseeable future. Adapt or die off. Thats the choice all us old dinosaurs face.
 
MS201 M-Tronics are renown for failing fuel solenoids. Brad is right to suspect it because that is what the trouble often is. Stihl now has a solenoid valve test routine that should be performed in addition to pulling the data from the module. The fuel trim numbers will tell you what the module is doing to try to keep the motor running properly. The low fuel trim value is typically around 40-45. If you encounter a value down around 30, it tells you that the M-Tronic is cutting back fuel supply (or at least trying to) because it senses the motor is running too rich. Newer modules are "locked" at a minimum high fuel trim of 45. Anything below 45 on high trim is potentially problematic. Stihl has had quality issues with the solenoid valves- there is a new style coming out that is more durable. The M-Tronic diagnostic looks for electrical problems- it will not detect a mechanical problem. Often a mechanical problem will affect the fuel trim numbers and needs to be recognized as such. The new solenoid test looks for pressure leakage that is indicative of a failing solenoid. I don't say "failed" until it fails completely. These "failing" solenoids will leak a little fuel and cause running issues. A leaking solenoid will pass the M-Tronic electrical test, but will fail the new pressure test. If your saw has a solenoid issue, be sure you and your dealer know that the solenoid has a 3 year warranty because it is an emissions device.
M-Tronic is a very dependable engine management system, but it isn't foolproof. A mechanical problem will screw up an M-Tronic saw just like it'll do to a conventional carbureted saw. Has your dealer pulled the data off the module? It won't always tell you what the problem is, but it will help rule-in or rule-out problems. A troublesome tank vent will still cause the saw to die, M-Tronic or not. I'd take a good look at the wires within the handle- the post said that the owner had replaced the handle. The M-Tronic wires are small and delicate- they're easily damaged. I would also recommend putting a Stihl ZAT-4 spark tester on the unit and the M-Tronic testing side cover along with the bar and chain. Go cut with the saw and watch the spark. Does it disappear when the saw begins to die, or does it continue until the engine slows down to the electronic low cutoff RPM? Has anyone checked the fuel filter, fuel hose, and carb inlet screen? Any of these can cause a shutting off issue.
I work on 2 or 3 M-Tronic saws per day and I'm seeing fewer and fewer REAL M-Tronic problems. The new generation of locked modules have solved almost all of the lean running problems. I hope that the new ceramic? solenoid valves are more robust than what's out there right now. I'm an old guy who still uses my trusty 028WB on a weekly basis, but my 3 year old MS261 CMZ is starting to win me over. M-Tronic and other electronic engine management systems are going to be around for the foreseeable future. Adapt or die off. Thats the choice all us old dinosaurs face.
Thanks for the thorough response. It's great to have a knowledgeable Stihl tech around that isn't just guessing.
 
Love it or hate it, M-Tronic makes my life as a tech much easier. I work as the handheld service tech for a dealership that sells and services Stihl, Husqvarna, and Shindaiwa. Stihl is, by far, our premier handheld product line. We have 2 locations in Northern VA and sell approx $1M in Stihl wholegoods and accessories per year. We're not the biggest Stihl dealer in VA, but we're close. So suffice it to say that I see a fair amount of equipment in for service and repair. We deal with lots of homeowners who run the gamut from clueless to diligent and landscapers large and small.
That said, rarely do I see a Stihl product where the M-Tronic system is at fault for an engine failure. The M-Tronic system tries to keep a saw running at its optimum in a variety of conditions. It does lots- it monitors:
-the control unit's part number
-whether this is the original controller or a spare part (replacement)
-the software version installed on the controller
-the total running time on the product
-the number of successful starts
-the number of unsuccessful starts
-the low speed fuel trim value
-the high speed fuel trim value
-the condition of the temperature sensor
-the function of the controller
-the solenoid valve's electrical function
What it doesn't do is keep a saw from being damaged by use in conditions outside reasonable design expectations or correct mechanical problems.

What????

M-Tronic can't control:
-the octane of the fuel being used
-the freshness of the fuel
-the amount and quality of the mix oil
-the condition of the chain

M-Tronic is designed to keep a saw running the best it can within practical limitations. It can't correct a lack of common sense on the part of the operator. It can't turn old stale fuel into good mix. It can't sharpen the chain. It can't stop a saw that is being badly overheated by an operator forcing a dull chain to cut. And it can't diagnose a mechanical problem so an inexperienced tech can properly repair a saw.

Anything that can take down a conventional saw can stop an M-Tronic saw. All the programmed-in wizardry of M-Tronic cannot overcome a mechanical problem as simple as an obstructed fuel filter. It is important for techs to have a systematic approach to assessing a saw, diagnosing the issues, and repairing those issues. If you can properly check out a conventional saw, you will do well with M-Tronic. If you guess at problems and occasionally fix them by blind luck, you're really screwed because you now have an additional level of complexity that you don't understand either. Stick to the basics and learn how to check each system. If you do this, it all comes together and you'll perform successful repairs every time.
As we say: "The reward for a successful repair is another broken machine from the lineup".
 
The "real tech is on medical leave". This is your opportunity to teach yourself some cool stuff that will help you with every job you do going forward.
Consider this:
-treat an M-Tronic saw like any other saw while checking it out
-have a systematic checkout procedure that you NEVER vary from
-don't assume that just because it has new technology that this new technology is at fault
-make it a point to learn something new every day, or better yet, with every repair

When I'm not turning wrenches or trying to keep up with my 3 sons, I'm a volunteer EMS provider in 2 VA counties. It took a couple of years to realize that my job (technician) and my joy (EMS) are essentially the same thing. My approach to a repair job or a patient requires the same information gathering process.

Form a general impression-
Read the service order. Then read it again. Look at the saw, blower, whatever and look at its condition and let it tell you about its age and condition.
With a patient, I look at them, the environment they're in (house, car, bed, etc) this is before I ever say a word to them.

Determine the chief complaint-
Won't start, dies during a cut, leaks gooey stuff, or is it in for the "general service"
Same with people-- feeling sick, projectile vomiting, vehicle accident, or specific injury

Determine overall condition and possible life threats-
Condition of fuel, how does it feel when you pull the rope, how does it sound? Any really obvious problems?
Is patient conscious and alert, what could kill them in the next 5 minutes while I check them over?

Assess vitals-
Try to start the saw. Use a flashlight and look in the fuel tank for creepy looking stuff in the fuel. Add fresh fuel and try to start it.
Talk to patient and get vital signs. Listen to what they say and how they say it. Listen some more.

Get the history-
Has owner tried to fix the saw (always suspect they may have screwed something up), when did problem start, has it been to shop before, for what, and when.
What is patient's medical history (same thing as above- if they can't tell you, ask family or bystanders)

Perform exam
Systematic check of all systems- Stihl has a great checklist that never fails it you do it all and in order. This clearly isn't needed if the saw is in for a specific complaint such as "bar adjuster doesn't work".
Head-to-toe assessment of patient if warranted by conditions (unconscious, etc). Otherwise a focused exam "I hit my hand with a hammer"

Interventions-
Repair the saw as needed. Then test cut a few times to be sure all is well. Re-read the service ticket to be sure you didn't miss anything.
Treat the injury and transport the patient to hospital if needed. Continue to monitor vitals and condition during care or transport.

After every repair or patient contact, take 30 seconds (or more) to ask yourself what went right and what went wrong. Think about how to do it better the next time. Even from a general service of a healthy saw, you can learn how it should perform- how the rope feels when you pull it, how the saw sounds, and how it performs. Remember these for next time because you need to know how things should be- this way its easier to see things that aren't correct.

Learn, learn, learn. Then remember.
 
Has owner tried to fix the saw (always suspect they may have screwed something up), when did problem start, has it been to shop before, for what, and when.

The owner says it did not start doing this until he dropped the saw breaking the handle and replaced it himself..

I have a hard time squaring that with the symptoms, but may make sense in the end.
 
Dropping the saw adds another dimension to the information. Its no real surprize because the owner replaced the handle. How do handles break?
Yep, dropping the saw. Did you look at the carb where it mounts to the intake elbow- there is a black plastic sealing ring that goes between them.The ring indexes into the carb and seals the joint. Take a look for a torn intake elbow too- many times a split will be closed up until pressure on the handle in a cut flexes the antivibe bushings enough to open up a gap. Good luck, this will be a rewarding one to figure out and repair.
 
I have a similar problem with my ms201tc-m. Died spontaneously after normal idle for around 60 seconds and died suddenly in the cut. Upon examination the piston was scored. I did full compression and vac tests. No problems.
I found the solenoid valve on the carb had a torn o-ring. I replaced the whole solenoid because the dealer wouldn't sell just the o-ring. I also replaced the P&C, plus the gas tank because it was cracked. The saw has a muffler mod and 7-8 degree timing advance. The saw runs fantastic most of the time but STILL dies in the cut. Especially in big wood (16" bar). Starts normally afterward. The Dealer won't look at it because of the mods.
So any information about similar problems is greatly appreciated. Please let us know what you find. Any advice for my saw is also appreciated.
 

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