help, why am I grooving

[chainsaw papa]

Wow BobL thanks so much for taking the time to do that for me. That is a lot of great info that I'm going to have to mill over. Do you have any holes in your bar for the oil or is it just resting in the right spot? I'll have to fix my end of the hose it has been moving around a little the last few cuts. It was attached with zip ties and the electrical tape finally stretched.

I'm really surprised that my chain was that out of uniform. I had used a set of calipers and thought the teeth were all the right length. I had made all the teeth the length of the smallest one on the chain is that right or do you only have to match the smallest on each side? Ive seam to have read it both ways on places. As for the rakers I had used the stihl 2 in 1 file just for the reason of the rakers being uniform and then checked it on this stihl tool then rounded out the front. I did just get today in the mail the grandberg file n joint so ill be able to set my angles and depth and try and be true.

So I only have hard woods for milling, they are all oak a and all have been dead and I have not seen a chip fly out of that saw for more then twenty seconds in 450 board feet before its just making powder, I had no idea there was another way. Now when you say hell on the bar and chain do you mean they need to get replaced sooner or just more frequent maintenance filling down the bar bur and sharpening the chain.

Now I'm running a stihl 461 with a 32nh bar in hard wood. With out straining the power head what would you recommend setting my rakers and gullet at for a regular chain as the box shown above and also for a skip chain that is one I picked up that the stihl dealer made? the nice thing with this new file system I can set it to the top of the raker then adjust it, every click is .010,,it should really help me true out all my chains.

I watched a video with a guy using skip chain and he filed every other two cutters narrow to make ripping chain would that be better? Do you use skip chain or reg full? I found the skip chain to be nicer in someways but painfully slow, but perhaps if I lowered my rakers enough it would be tolerable.

perhaps if my rakers are too low for milling that’s why I can’t get the saw to lead the cut with the nose, I just asked rarefish383 this on another thread also But if my bar is bad can it hurt my chain so if I put that chain into a new bar it’ll then hurt the new bar?
I ll be sure to keep reading through the miling 101
Thanks again

 

[BobL]

Wow BobL thanks so much for taking the time to do that for me. That is a lot of great info that I'm going to have to mill over. Do you have any holes in your bar for the oil or is it just resting in the right spot? I'll have to fix my end of the hose it has been moving around a little the last few cuts. It was attached with zip ties and the electrical tape finally stretched.

Yeah Zip ties are not the best.
My aux oiler delivery support goes right through the bar clamp - I used to have holes through my bars (see old oiler mount in pic below) but I replaced it with a drip oiler
View attachment 796257
Here is a simple one I made for a mate.
View attachment 796255
Thats a black poly irrigation fitting and a piece of threaded rod through the piece of steel strap. This enables the height to be adjusted so the gap is ~1/16" so the oil does not drop but wicks out direct onto the bar/chain

I'm really surprised that my chain was that out of uniform. I had used a set of calipers and thought the teeth were all the right length. I had made all the teeth the length of the smallest one on the chain is that right or do you only have to match the smallest on each side? Ive seam to have read it both ways on places. As for the rakers I had used the stihl 2 in 1 file just for the reason of the rakers being uniform and then checked it on this stihl tool then rounded out the front. I did just get today in the mail the grandberg file n joint so ill be able to set my angles and depth and try and be true.

The "top plate cutting angle" which is the "hook" is the main angle to worry about since this determines the self feed rate of the saw.
Look here for details https://www.arboristsite.com/commun...nts-tips-and-tricks.93458/page-6#post-4107285

So I only have hard woods for milling, they are all oak a and all have been dead and I have not seen a chip fly out of that saw for more then twenty seconds in 450 board feet before its just making powder, I had no idea there was another way. Now when you say hell on the bar and chain do you mean they need to get replaced sooner or just more frequent maintenance filling down the bar bur and sharpening the chain.

This tells me your rakers are too high.
By wear on the B&C, yes they will need to be replaced sooner and the bar needs to be dressed slightly more often but I can't tell you how much sooner because there are so many other factors at play.

Now I'm running a stihl 461 with a 32nh bar in hard wood. With out straining the power head what would you recommend setting my rakers and gullet at for a regular chain as the box shown above and also for a skip chain that is one I picked up that the stihl dealer made? the nice thing with this new file system I can set it to the top of the raker then adjust it, every click is .010,,it should really help me true out all my chains.

I don't like telling CSMers what to set their rakers at because this does not encourage them to work it out for themselves, Once you know how to work it out for a particular setup then you can do it for any setup, eg longer bar wider wood different wood types.

I written this a few times but here is again
Start by getting all the cutters about the same length.
Then set the" raker depth" to "gullet width" ratio on all cutters to a 10:1 ratio (that's a 6º raker angle) by measuring the gullet width and then dividing that by ten and filing down the raker to that depth
eg if the gullet is 0.35" then the raker depth needs to be 0.035"
You can measure the depth using feeler gauges - place a straight edge or ruler across two consecutive cutters and slip the feeler gauges between the ruler and raker top.
I measure the raker angle direct like this


Once you have done all the rakers, try cutting, freehand cutting is fine as long as its down the grain like milling, its the same type of wood and the the width of the cut is about the same as the widest you are going to mill..
Then drop the rakers further by say 3 swipes each, try cutting again.
Repeat the previous step until the chain starts to be grabby, if you went too far, take a few swipes off each cutter, and repeat that until the grabbiness is reduced
Then measure the raker depth and that is the optimum raker depth for that combo of milling factors (wood saw, bar etc)
Of course every time you file the cutters the gullet gets wider so you have to drop the rakers even more then next time.

For folks that think this is uber anal, I don't measure the raker deaths every time I touch up the rakers. In the field while milling I'm pretty freehand, I lightly touch up the cutters (2-3 swipes) after EVERY tank of mix and swipe the rakers 2-3 times after every 3-4 tanks.
That way the cutters are never blunt and the rakers are always close to optimised. The only time I specifically remeasure the raker depths are when I take the saw home at the end of the day and clean and service the saw, pull of the B&C, clean the bar groove etc. Then I remeasure and set the rakers again. It depends how much milling I do. If its only a couple of logs and the saw is cutting well I leave it for next time.

I watched a video with a guy using skip chain and he filed every other two cutters narrow to make ripping chain would that be better? Do you use skip chain or reg full? I found the skip chain to be nicer in someways but painfully slow, but perhaps if I lowered my rakers enough it would be tolerable.

I milled about 30 logs with skip chain but then switched to full comp chain for all my mills/bars form 20 up to 60". I've been filing by hand for 55 years so I am fairly quick at doing it. My dad taught me his way when I was nine but about 12 years ago I discovered I could improve it so I came up with my own slightly different way based around what chainsaw racers do.

perhaps if my rakers are too low for milling that’s why I can’t get the saw to lead the cut with the nose, I just asked rarefish383 this on another thread also But if my bar is bad can it hurt my chain so if I put that chain into a new bar it’ll then hurt the new bar?

I think the wear on your bar can be dressed out it's better if the bar is smooth and dressed otherwise it will initiate early wear on the chain.

 

[buzz sawyer]

Lots of good info here. Here's my 2 cents worth.

I'm sure I haven't milled as much as the others on this thread but my first concern on this was the skip-tooth chain. I've never milled with it but do know I get smoother cuts on my miter saw with an 80 tooth vs a 40 tooth blade.
The damage I see on the bar tells me you are putting way too much pressure or need a lot more oil. File off the burr and make sure the top of the rails are square to the side of the bar. I milled several dead standing Ash logs 24" - 27" and saw no sign of the damage seen on your bar. I was using my SP125c / 36" bar / no aux. oiler.
When cutting with the PH leading the bar nose, you are cutting against the grain, which could be why it digs in more.
Cutting with the bar nose leading the PH should give a smoother cut. Think of dragging a box down a set of stairs vs dragging it up.

 

[Mad Professor]

I couldn't help it......

 

[chainsaw papa]

Sweet BobL thanks for more great info.

The two links about the aux oiler come up as an error.

I like the idea of having a log on end for testing and adjusting, I hoping the new jig I got will help me dial it in consistently. Also when you say dress the bar do you mean de burr it but then also poor oil in the groove? or oil the bar?

Buzz Sawyer thanks for sharing also.. What your saying about your miter saw totally makes sense to me the whole reason I started with the skip chain was to be able to run a bigger bar on sort of a small saw. Also I think after all of Bob's info on my chain I think the reason my saw dosnt want to run nose first is due to the rakers being to short and with rarefish advising me on using a guide board with all my cuts is going to help a lot. Unfortunately it's going to be a few weeks at best before I have a chance to mill again and report back, gives me plenty of time to clean up my chains.

Thanks again to everyone for your time and advise,,,,, and Mad Professor thank you that was awesome!!!!

 

[Mad Professor]

I've been using a logosol M5 mill since 1998 w/066 stihl. Never had an issue with grooves, sometimes got chatters getting started in the cut.

I've only been running 3/8 picco chain, 63PMX by stihl. I've only hand filed it, and have used chains until teeth broke off (tossed them then) and still had smooth cuts. See some old threads by Mtgunn on using 3/8 picco chain.

The Logosol mill runs the bar at 90 degrees to the log/cant, so I don't think you need to lead a bar into the cut to get a smooth one. That may help feeding with alaskan/granberg type setups though.

Concerning the MS461, I'm not sure if it like the 046 and 066 where you can upgrade the oiler? In those you did not need the whole oiler just two parts for upgrade.

IMHO it is not so much oil, as heat that makes milling hard on bars/chain. Granted I'm not using real long bars. A water drip will cool things off.

Just my two cents.

 

[rarefish383]

Has anyone tried one of these? It's very similar to the chain oiler on my old Vermeer stump grinder.
https://www.ebay.com/i/283660142684...VlToAiIMHmU2KkAzsCDrEvWbno6nAe9BoCyVIQAvD_BwE

 

[andy]

I've been using a logosol M5 mill since 1998 w/066 stihl. Never had an issue with grooves, sometimes got chatters getting started in the cut.

I've only been running 3/8 picco chain, 63PMX by stihl. I've only hand filed it, and have used chains until teeth broke off (tossed them then) and still had smooth cuts. See some old threads by Mtgunn on using 3/8 picco chain.

The Logosol mill runs the bar at 90 degrees to the log/cant, so I don't think you need to lead a bar into the cut to get a smooth one. That may help feeding with alaskan/granberg type setups though.

Concerning the MS461, I'm not sure if it like the 046 and 066 where you can upgrade the oiler? In those you did not need the whole oiler just two parts for upgrade.

IMHO it is not so much oil, as heat that makes milling hard on bars/chain. Granted I'm not using real long bars. A water drip will cool things off.

Just my two cents.

Interesting points Mad Prof. ....The Logosol is something I looked at early on. Ended up going with Alaskan style for portability into the woods.
Out of curiosity, what is the typical width you mill... and widest ?
The "Nose forward" technique has made a big difference in the quality of cut surface for me.
I'm milling pretty wide though... Minimum 22"-26" often 30"ish.

Good call on the oiler.
There is a H/O oiler option for the 461.... Highly recommended for the OP to instal it.
From what I understand, Any of the Stihl models in the ms4xx or ms6xx can be upgraded to the higher capacity oiler.

 

[Mad Professor]

Interesting points Mad Prof. ....The Logosol is something I looked at early on. Ended up going with Alaskan style for portability into the woods.
Out of curiosity, what is the typical width you mill... and widest ?
The "Nose forward" technique has made a big difference in the quality of cut surface for me.
I'm milling pretty wide though... Minimum 22"-26" often 30"ish.

Good call on the oiler.
There is a H/O oiler option for the 461.... Highly recommended for the OP to instal it.
From what I understand, Any of the Stihl models in the ms4xx or ms6xx can be upgraded to the higher capacity oiler.

My mill will do ~ 15' 6" lengths. Weight is the other issue, they say if I remember 1500 lbs? I know I've went over that.

Given those parameters. Most logs that will fit on the mill can take two slices off the log, 1st then turn 90 degrees and then another. A 24" bar will do the rest without turns unless you want to for grade/reasons. If you want 30" wide natural edges you need a long bar and a short log so not to exceed the weight max out.

Really big stuff you mount the mill on the log, inverted. Then no restrictions, use a longer bar have at it.

The whole mill is ~ 150 Llbs. One hardy person can carry it into the woods....

 

[chainsaw papa]

I've only been running 3/8 picco chain, 63PMX by stihl. I've only hand filed it, and have used chains until teeth broke off (tossed them then) and still had smooth cuts. See some old threads by Mtgunn on using 3/8 picco chain.

I'm a little curious about the picco chain, the stihl dealer out here dosn't have any knowledge about milling and no other customers that do it but said he asked his rep for me and he recommended the 3/8 picco. I'm assuming it would be easier on the saw but was wondering how the cut times might change if at all. All I would have to do is change the sproket over right? and does it take a special 3/8 file? I was having trouble finding any threads from Mtgunn but will keep looking i'm still getting used to this site.

Concerning the MS461, I'm not sure if it like the 046 and 066 where you can upgrade the oiler? In those you did not need the whole oiler just two parts for upgrade.

As for the oiler parts, does it just increase the amount it holds or further increase the flow. I always seam to have close to half a tank of oil left after the gas is gone and my adjustment is set to high with no clogs. It was like that out of the box. I actual went back to the dealer to ask about it thinking something was wrong and he told me thats how they make them now.

here is a H/O oiler option for the 461.... Highly recommended for the OP to instal it.
From what I understand, Any of the Stihl models in the ms4xx or ms6xx can be upgraded to the higher capacity oiler.

Sorry to have to ask Andy but what does H/O and OP stand for?

All this talk of oilers had gotten me thinking. I used to mill much smoother boards when I started last year and one thing that I did change and over look was my bar oil. Tractor supply had some on sale and I picked up some winter weight oil thinking its cold out and its thinner so maybe it would go through more oil. Which didn't happen looking back,,could a lot of my dry chain and bar wear be that the lighter oil just isn't tacky enough and isn't staying on the chain with the heat generated during milling?

Having said all that has there ever been a discussion on here about using filtered motor or hydro oil or perhaps frier oil in your aux oiler. I would worry about small metal burs in the motor oil getting between the chain and bar if not filtered well and the frier oil might just smell bad or stain the wood.

 

[BobL]

Th aux oiler delivery support on th BIL mill goes right through the bar clamp - I used to have holes through my bars (see old oiler mount in pic below) but I replaced it with a drip oiler (New Oiler) on all my mills.



Here's one I made for a mates 3120.

Thats a black poly irrigation fitting and a piece of threaded rod through the piece of steel strap. This enables the height to be adjusted so the gap is ~1/16" so the oil does not drop but wicks out direct onto the bar/chain.

 

[BobL]

I'm a little curious about the picco chain, the stihl dealer out here dosn't have any knowledge about milling and no other customers that do it but said he asked his rep for me and he recommended the 3/8 picco. I'm assuming it would be easier on the saw but was wondering how the cut times might change if at all. All I would have to do is change the sproket over right? and does it take a special 3/8 file?

It's called 3/8 chain but it is definitely NOT 3/8 and a special sprocket is most definitely required and it is not readily available.
The standard 3/8 pitch noses also have a problem with this chain so it has to be kept very tight to prevent it riding off the nose until the chain stretches enough to sit on without riding off.
My understanding in that Logosols come with these drive sprockets and will only supply them to Logosol owners.
I made my own drive sprockets by turning down 404 sprockets in a metalwork lathe - this requires tungsten carbide cutters, los of patience and be prepared to break some of the cutters while doing it.

As for the oiler parts, does it just increase the amount it holds or further increase the flow. I always seam to have close to half a tank of oil left after the gas is gone and my adjustment is set to high with no clogs. It was like that out of the box. I actual went back to the dealer to ask about it thinking something was wrong and he told me thats how they make them now.

On the BIL mill the flow of my oil is adjustable from the milling position via a bicycle gear change lever and cable that has 7 click positions and this opens and closes a valve on the oiler.

this talk of oilers had gotten me thinking. I used to mill much smoother boards when I started last year and one thing that I did change and over look was my bar oil. Tractor supply had some on sale and I picked up some winter weight oil thinking its cold out and its thinner so maybe it would go through more oil. Which didn't happen looking back,,could a lot of my dry chain and bar wear be that the lighter oil just isn't tacky enough and isn't staying on the chain with the heat generated during milling?

Sufficient B&C oiling is important in keeping the bar cool specially in dry wood. In some of the stuff I mill more resin from the wood is extracted by hotter chain and this clings to the chain like glue making it even hotter due to the increased friction. To counteract this, when the cut is finished I let the oiler run with the chain running out of the wood at its slowest seep so it doesn't fling off any oil - once the chain is glistening with oil I stop, refuel and do my chain touch. By the start of the next cut any remaining hard oiled resin has softened and just peels off in the first inch or so of the new cut.

Having said all that has there ever been a discussion on here about using filtered motor or hydro oil or perhaps frier oil in your aux oiler. I would worry about small metal burs in the motor oil getting between the chain and bar if not filtered well and the frier oil might just smell bad or stain the wood.

I use filtered motor oil - its clear/transparent as new oil - with a viscosity additive. The place I buy it from adds the viscosity agent to my specification. I use the same oil in the aux oiler.

 

[Mad Professor]

6Kproducts (formerly danzco) has 3/8 picco rims for Oregon large 7 spline. Before they made these available I had them make a batch up for me (2009?) I have a lifetime supply.

https://www.6kproducts.com/sprocket-375_p_pitch.html

Don't try running 3/8 picco chain on a 3/8 sprocket tip bar, it WILL muck things up. Stihl made 3003 mount bars in 3/8 picco but they are hard to find. GB makes bars with this configuration. You need a 3/8 picco rim sprocket too

I don't see these GB bars listed but I've bought them through Left Coast Supplies before the went out of business . I'd have to check a bar to see if there is part #.

Logosol has a monopoly on stihl 63PMX chain in the USA and they price it like it is made of gold. Woodland 3/8 picco milling chain is an alternative but not the quality of the stihl chain. You can also regrind the stihl 63PM chain but then the cutter will be shorter to start with.

As mentioned heat is the problem with bars/chains when milling. A simple water drip goes a long way to keep things cool and also helps prevent buildup of crud.

Concerning the Stihl HO (high output) oilers, they just have a different piston and control screw that allows more flow, you don't need to buy the whole pump. The 046/460 and 066/660 stihls had these. I'm not sure if the 461 does? Check an IPL of the oiler.

The other member that did a lot of work milling with 3/8 picco/lo pro was mtngun. A ton of reading here

https://www.arboristsite.com/community/search/60971677/?q=3/8&o=relevance&c[user][0]=24362

 

[Mad Professor]

BobL

I really like the idea of using the bicycle gear shifter to control flow setting on your oiler!

Is there pics here of the rest of your system? Great stuff there!

 

[BobL]

BobL
I really like the idea of using the bicycle gear shifter to control flow setting on your oiler!
Is there pics here of the rest of your system? Great stuff there!

Oil lever


Tank flow control

Oil lever location.


I tried water cooling in place of aux oiling - not good in my hardwoods, after about 3 weeks I noticed more wear and tear as the water washed too much of the oil away.
Kept things nice and clean through.

MtnGUN Made his Lopro sprockets out of 404 as well, that's where I got the idea for mine.

 

[Mad Professor]

Oil lever
View attachment 796858

Tank flow control
View attachment 796859
Oil lever location.
View attachment 796860

I tried water cooling in place of aux oiling - not good in my hardwoods, after about 3 weeks I noticed more wear and tear as the water washed too much of the oil away.
Kept things nice and clean through.

MtnGUN Made his loper sprockets out of 404 as well, that's where I got the idea for mine.

The Danzco picco sprockets are really high quality pin drive type. They started out in making saw sprockets for race saws.

Maybe the aux oiler with just a bit of water drip too might be something to try?

Have you used any of the GB 3/8 picco bars?

 

[andy]

Sorry Pappa...

H/O in this case is “high output”.
OP is Originating Poster or original post ... Commonly used in Forum Jargon.

If all else fails ...google tells all

 

[chainsaw papa]

Ha ha thanks Andy, I had a few guesses as to what it meant, all of which wrong. I did try google but the best I got was h/o -home owner, and
OP -operating professional

 

[Mad Professor]

Ha ha thanks Andy, I had a few guesses as to what it meant, all of which wrong. I did try google but the best I got was h/o -home owner, and
OP -operating professional

Where in NE are you? I venture between VT and western MA.

 

[BobL]

The Danzco picco sprockets are really high quality pin drive type. They started out in making saw sprockets for race saws.

I know the high quality as I have several of their 9 and 10 pin race pin sprockets. Never used them.

Maybe the aux oiler with just a bit of water drip too might be something to try?

I tried water drip and even a hose connected up to the nose with one of those click fittings. I didn't do it because of heat - I was just being a tight *** to see if I could reduce the expenses of running an aux oiler.

Have you used any of the GB 3/8 picco bars?

No - I tried to get one back in 2010 but my local GB supplier said he couldn't get anything like that - maybe they came in later?