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Groundman One said:
One thing to watch for, and I saw it happen several times when my boss took on partners over the years, is that as time goes by one partner tends to do more driving around and talking and "business stuff" while the other partner does actual work. My boss was the work guy and his "partners" always had reasons to go pick something up or go see someone or had to dress in non-work clothes for business talk and what have you.

And as the money starts to come in, the one who works less tends to work even less and "needs" to spend more time driving around and "taking care of things".

Good luck and watch out.
Click to expand...

That's an interesting perspective '-)

Based on my experience both from being a worker and also having been a manager of some medium to large companies, I found that most 'workers' have no idea how to run a business. A lot of these guys are excellent at what they do, maybe even at the top of their game... and they decide to go into business for themselves since they're great at what they do. The trouble is that the 'work' is actually half of a business, and most customers have no ability to judge it anyhow. The other half is marketing, sales, tax, record keeping, training, hiring and firing, planning, expansion and strategy. Most 'workers' I know who go into business consider that half to be 'not my job'. It's tedious for them, they're tired after working, and sick of stupid customers who don't understand their job. They hate competing against other bidders, marketing is confusing, sales seems to mean getting talked down on price, taxes are a nightmare, record keeping is a complete nightmare! A blackhole of lost receipts, never to be found again! Hiring and firing means dealing with retards, training is a waste of time and planning means thinking about what gear is needed for tomorrows job. Sound familiar? Sure does, because that's every tree small company ever!

To succeed in business, you don't need to be good at the job, you need to be good at business! I can't believe how many guys overlook this fundamental truth. The smartest businessmen I know are successful in any industry. They are great salesmen, and great leaders. They love people! They love dealing with people, and people love dealing with them. They put the best face on things, instill confidence in customers and make friends everywhere. They get great prices for their work, even better prices than some guys who do a better job! They are ruthless about tax and record keeping, find the best workers, and bring out the best in those workers. They love competing! Just like a climber who loves being pushed to the edge with a complex climb, these guys are inspired by business. They've always got some edge or new idea to get ahead and reach that next level, always seem to have several irons in the fire and pull rabbits out of a hat at will. They may never have done the actual job in their whole lives!

You've got to know your own strengths and weaknesses. If you're a 'worker' who thinks 'business stuff' is a waste of time, you're probably better off working for someone else, because all that business stuff is going to do your head in. You'll get nowhere and spend all your time chasing your tail. I could never work with a partner, but if I found someone who was really good at business, I'd be pretty happy with a 50/50 split considering I'd basically just be a foreman or at best a general manager. Realistically someone who was great at business wouldn't need me as a partner, they could hire guys like me to fill those rolls for a lot less money and keep all the profit for themselves.

Shaun
 
imagineero said:
Based on my experience both from being a worker and also having been a manager of some medium to large companies, I found that most 'workers' have no idea how to run a business. A lot of these guys are excellent at what they do, maybe even at the top of their game... and they decide to go into business for themselves since they're great at what they do. The trouble is that the 'work' is actually half of a business, and most customers have no ability to judge it anyhow. The other half is marketing, sales, tax, record keeping, training, hiring and firing, planning, expansion and strategy.

Shaun
Click to expand...

I hear ya, and there's a lot of truth to that. But from what I've seen one partner tends to do more work, physical and paper, and the other claims the title of BS Artist, having to drive around more and more for this reason or that reason. Always things to attend to, except actual work.

And as soon as the money is rolling, the BS Artist partner tends to get what we call the "Yeah, yeah, yeah... just do it!" attitude, where physical impediments to getting a job done are ignored and he thinks the sound of his voice barking commands will overcome the problem. Then he splits to go drive around doing "something" and it's the boss who actually works who ends up dealing with the problems so the guys can get the job done.

I've seen it happen more then once. Partners is a dangerous thing.
 
imagineero said:
That's an interesting perspective '-)

Based on my experience both from being a worker and also having been a manager of some medium to large companies, I found that most 'workers' have no idea how to run a business. A lot of these guys are excellent at what they do, maybe even at the top of their game... and they decide to go into business for themselves since they're great at what they do. The trouble is that the 'work' is actually half of a business, and most customers have no ability to judge it anyhow. The other half is marketing, sales, tax, record keeping, training, hiring and firing, planning, expansion and strategy. Most 'workers' I know who go into business consider that half to be 'not my job'. It's tedious for them, they're tired after working, and sick of stupid customers who don't understand their job. They hate competing against other bidders, marketing is confusing, sales seems to mean getting talked down on price, taxes are a nightmare, record keeping is a complete nightmare! A blackhole of lost receipts, never to be found again! Hiring and firing means dealing with retards, training is a waste of time and planning means thinking about what gear is needed for tomorrows job. Sound familiar? Sure does, because that's every tree small company ever!

To succeed in business, you don't need to be good at the job, you need to be good at business! I can't believe how many guys overlook this fundamental truth. The smartest businessmen I know are successful in any industry. They are great salesmen, and great leaders. They love people! They love dealing with people, and people love dealing with them. They put the best face on things, instill confidence in customers and make friends everywhere. They get great prices for their work, even better prices than some guys who do a better job! They are ruthless about tax and record keeping, find the best workers, and bring out the best in those workers. They love competing! Just like a climber who loves being pushed to the edge with a complex climb, these guys are inspired by business. They've always got some edge or new idea to get ahead and reach that next level, always seem to have several irons in the fire and pull rabbits out of a hat at will. They may never have done the actual job in their whole lives!

You've got to know your own strengths and weaknesses. If you're a 'worker' who thinks 'business stuff' is a waste of time, you're probably better off working for someone else, because all that business stuff is going to do your head in. You'll get nowhere and spend all your time chasing your tail. I could never work with a partner, but if I found someone who was really good at business, I'd be pretty happy with a 50/50 split considering I'd basically just be a foreman or at best a general manager. Realistically someone who was great at business wouldn't need me as a partner, they could hire guys like me to fill those rolls for a lot less money and keep all the profit for themselves.

Shaun
Click to expand...
there is a heck of lot of truth in this. I suppose I fall right in with this since I consider the "bookwork" of having a business as the worst part for sure. I always thought doing estimates would be fun.....not so much. At least I was smart enough to hire an accountant for payroll and tax ****. But I also can not imagine being in this business with out being able to do the work at least if need be. I dont think there are enough RELIABLE and QUALIFIED people to hire that you can turn loose and assume they wont tear everything up. Around here at least. I would also think that a partner could maybe work as long as there was never any cash jobs. I think that could cause trouble quick.
 
There are different strategies you can use according to your skills. Most guys can get by with a semi steady amount of work doing it all themselves, but when you add up the hours over the year and take away the expenses and figure the real hourly rate you will be horrified! Nothing wrong with that if you love doing it yourself. You can try to expand, but anybody who has gone that route has found that at some point you've got to put the tools down and run the business. If that's not what you're about then stay small.

For myself, I've found that I do pretty good in either role, but I can't do both! I seriously can't. I've run the business side in past and did great, and run the work side in past and done great too. I'm looking it throwing in the business side of it and just sticking to the work for the next few years, then probably flip back the other way and go back to the business side of it. I still want to have a few more years in the trees because I love it. There's more money in the business side of it though honestly. I know plenty of guys in each role, and generally the guys in the trees (only) have the bigger smiles.
 
imagineero said:
There are different strategies you can use according to your skills. Most guys can get by with a semi steady amount of work doing it all themselves, but when you add up the hours over the year and take away the expenses and figure the real hourly rate you will be horrified! Nothing wrong with that if you love doing it yourself. You can try to expand, but anybody who has gone that route has found that at some point you've got to put the tools down and run the business. If that's not what you're about then stay small.
Click to expand...

Small is us. And we like it that way. :cool:

Seen too many guys try to start out big and fancy with brand new top of the line equipment and custom paint jobs on the pickups. They look great, no question. but all that **** has to be paid for (for a loooong time). So they`re either pricing high and/or paying their guys little. Both of those options suck as far as long term prospects go.

The company I`m in has been around for over 25 years. Secrets to success as I see it: the KISS principle, ridiculously low overhead, and one boss.
 
imagineero said:
There are different strategies you can use according to your skills. Most guys can get by with a semi steady amount of work doing it all themselves, but when you add up the hours over the year and take away the expenses and figure the real hourly rate you will be horrified! Nothing wrong with that if you love doing it yourself. You can try to expand, but anybody who has gone that route has found that at some point you've got to put the tools down and run the business. If that's not what you're about then stay small.

For myself, I've found that I do pretty good in either role, but I can't do both! I seriously can't. I've run the business side in past and did great, and run the work side in past and done great too. I'm looking it throwing in the business side of it and just sticking to the work for the next few years, then probably flip back the other way and go back to the business side of it. I still want to have a few more years in the trees because I love it. There's more money in the business side of it though honestly. I know plenty of guys in each role, and generally the guys in the trees (only) have the bigger smiles.
Click to expand...

I know that is truthfully how you see it and at your stage in life how you feel it is....but that may not be actually HOW it is. A LOT of money can be made by just an Arborist (sophisticated treeman) and 1 groundman and mass equipment and the perfect client base (rich and smart and discerning) and a steady hopefully year long supply of work. Hard to imagine from someone like you that vascilates between roles to play and sees yourself in the optimum position in both realms...but the bottom line is a whole life can be lived and on a very high level with just a small biz, one treeman, one gman and others should know that it can be done so they don't give up. Takes a very tough and persistant (part of being tough) person tho. There are way worse lives to live.
 
imagineero said:
For myself, I've found that I do pretty good in either role, but I can't do both! I seriously can't. I've run the business side in past and did great, and run the work side in past and done great too. I'm looking it throwing in the business side of it and just sticking to the work for the next few years,..... THEN PROBABLY FLIP BACK..... the other way and go back to the business side of it. I still want to have a few more years in the trees because I love it. There's more money in the business side of it though honestly. I know plenty of guys in each role, and generally the guys in the trees (only) have the bigger smiles.
Click to expand...

I don't think so...but you are a little long winded so what you are saying may be obscured somewhat.
 
I found that most 'arborists' have little idea of how much their actual ex business tax income was last year. Or any year. I don't really need to go over their books to know the answer, and the books wouldn't give the answer anyway. All I need to do is look at how much money they have in the bank, whether they own their house or not, what car they drive, and how many hours they work. Most guys are on a treadmill. They get a bit of money in the bank then an emergency comes in (breakdown, workers comp, taxes, new bit of gear) and the money in the bank will cover it and leave just enough to keep the show on the road. Most don't own their own house. Most work very long hours and do their own maintenance, quoting, repairs. Most don't actually pay themselves a wage, they just live out of the business. Most rarely get holidays. Most are still in that same position after 10, 20, 30 years.

I'm sure your situation is nothing like that though. You probably keep good books, own your house, drive a nice car, work 40 hours a week and no weekends, can afford to pay someone to do all your maintenance and repairs, have budgeted for equipment breakdowns and upgrades, keep all the jobs on the books and still managed to make $150k last year which you paid yourself as a real wage ie. $3k a week every week deposited into your personal bank account from the business account and your own personal savings are separate from the business. You probably still kept drawing a wage through the holidays too, because you had that in your business budget. You've probably got money put aside for all the expenses of the business too.

If so, you're one of the very very few!
 
Never finance something that is not a tangible asset. Partnerships never end well, so be prepared. I get offers for partnerships all the time, never again. Got burned so bad that I am still picking scabs. Telemarketer (salesman) Realtor (investor) Baaaaad mistake on my part. I had the rep and I did all the work ......... and they got all the money. No matter how comfy you are with him, get it all in writing, that way it is on the table. Save and purchase all the smalls, never finance anything under a few g's. Your rep is everything, if you do a good job, people will spread the word. A ton of advertisers will start contacting you, trying to get you to sign with them, careful, they will screwya. Gotta have a website, don't go and use one of those cheap do it yourself deals, it will be obvious. Make sure that you look professional out there. You may be a bad aas crew, but if ya have mow hawks, ripped jeans and cut off sleeves, most will assume you are a dirtball, no matter if you are not. Perception is reality and image is everything. New equipment does not make you a pro. Old, cleaned and maintained speaks volumes of your character. The new stuff will come later. Learn to say no. Remember, it is better to fail with honor than it is to succeed by fraud. Keep a copy of your paperwork with ya at all times. Get your CA. KEEP YOUR PROMISES TO YOUR CLIENTS.

I thought about putting this in 101 like Vet said, but I think he is a experienced climber, maybe more appropriate in the business forum. I will leave it here for now.
 
treevet said:
I know that is truthfully how you see it and at your stage in life how you feel it is....but that may not be actually HOW it is. A LOT of money can be made by just an Arborist (sophisticated treeman) and 1 groundman and mass equipment and the perfect client base (rich and smart and discerning) and a steady hopefully year long supply of work. Hard to imagine from someone like you that vascilates between roles to play and sees yourself in the optimum position in both realms...but the bottom line is a whole life can be lived and on a very high level with just a small biz, one treeman, one gman and others should know that it can be done so they don't give up. Takes a very tough and persistant (part of being tough) person tho. There are way worse lives to live.
Click to expand...
Nice post treevet. Thanks. All of our paper work for tax id and business license is turned in and awaiting approval. Liability insurance should be sorted by weeks end. Our plan is to stay small with no employees as long as we can manage it. We both have connections with higher end home owners that should keep our heads above water the first year.
 
CanopyGorilla said:
Nice post treevet. Thanks. All of our paper work for tax id and business license is turned in and awaiting approval. Liability insurance should be sorted by weeks end. Our plan is to stay small with no employees as long as we can manage it. We both have connections with higher end home owners that should keep our heads above water the first year.
Click to expand...

No employees?

Are there just two of you doing the jobs?
 
Groundman One said:
No employees?

Are there just two of you doing the jobs?
Click to expand...
Yes. I run that way sometimes at the company I still work for and it works OK with a lot of jobs. It will be more work but it will be us with the money in our pocket at the end of the day. That's the main reason we want to start with a loader vs. a chipper. If we can save for a mini in the first year that would be ideal.
 
treevet said:
I know that is truthfully how you see it and at your stage in life how you feel it is....but that may not be actually HOW it is. A LOT of money can be made by just an Arborist (sophisticated treeman) and 1 groundman and mass equipment and the perfect client base (rich and smart and discerning) and a steady hopefully year long supply of work. Hard to imagine from someone like you that vascilates between roles to play and sees yourself in the optimum position in both realms...but the bottom line is a whole life can be lived and on a very high level with just a small biz, one treeman, one gman and others should know that it can be done so they don't give up. Takes a very tough and persistant (part of being tough) person tho. There are way worse lives to live.
Click to expand...

So true, It is just me and my son. Sometimes my F-I-L joins, but he mainly just wants to get out of the house and runs a rake. Refuses any money. I don't have all the equipment that I want, but I have all I need.
 
Just ordered my cards! Printed on recycled paper. The background image is a local river in the Scapegoat Wilderness and the tree logo I drew and edited.
 

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