Hinge Pocket Pressure Rig

[TheTreeSpyder]

i think i have something to bounce off you guys, that applys, and i started a drawing and tweaking a month ago for the write _expression. i've never seen this element refrenced, let alone seen consideration of what it can do. Something in place working unseen all the time. If the load is being stretched away from a hinging it will seperate earlier, if compressed into the hinge will hold on further! In a removal or topping the weight of the spar seats the spar to the flexing joint, more downward pressure will do that too, adding a lil more to the hinge. i've been doing this with laterals/horizontals for years, and am now just taking another turn at naming the parts properly; as in the old days; to call out the devils name in the victim to control it. Same here, or psychology etc.! To be able to walk in and call out the commanding properties properly with excrutiating accuracy, and call them out and recognize fluently there assemblies in a situation; and how to stack more on your side........ or something like that!

This is a work in progress, i haven't covered the safety aspects of not cutting through the hinge with that compressive force; but nor have i said how that line can hold that spar while you cut, and you coud evacuate and the line is slackened to place more force on the hinge, allowing it to fail/fold slowly. With a wide face, and well directed face 160 degree horizontal sweeps off the roof and into the yard at full length while hinge still holds, green end heavy, keeps stob up, doesn't hit roof. No man on roof. Leg on Load really shines here. Single, surgical moves into a clear path, without lifting. Achieved by directly pitting the wieght and length of the spar against itself; and not fighting it, but putting it on your side, then ushering slow movement so that force can't build, by walking the precipe of balance between gravity and control lightly.

Pure slow grace, pivoting to target on some horizontal sweeps, repeated many times some days. Rent-a-Dude locally doesn't allow anyone on roof, haven't werked with many; but took the hint,and looked for things like this,that didn't require lifting gear to clear obstacles. Moving in surgically calculated single risks per branch, can be safer as well as more productive; (realize the time you are saving; and breathe in , drawng arrow back aiming at target intently looking thru it........or something). It self tightens more dramatically than overhead selftightening rig, giving quantum control to line tender. Backcut walked to near failure, climber backs off a foot, as small amount of slack is allowed to allow hinge to gently fail/fold, but lose no control, then drift around to target zone, before tearoff, or sometimes cutting free of hinge by saw is needed.

i trained a real skeptic that i couldn't talk thru it to do it once. Had a job with fairly flat roof, many long limbs horizontal over it 6-10' off roof that had to come off. Could have nickled and dimed, made cushy matress piles under some stuff to drop bigger pieces into, but not real good overhead support options for just gently laying full units softly on the flat work surface (roof). He set this rig, and notched from 6-12, and started back cut, stopping as failure of the hinge loomed. i took the pole saw and reached up at the end (highest leverage point from hinge, torquing it around with most fibre) and pushed each one off sweeping it around to yard open processing area. It was going so good, i pulled one onto the roof from the other side wwith the hook then and drew it around, then pushed it off the other side of the roof, still hinged, farily flat. Just to prove a point. That is over 180 degree sweep, with no hinge tearoff! He became real confident with it that day, as he was doing the cutting and still no hinges failed, jsut by watching and feeling what he was doing and pitting the overwhelming length and weight against itself.

To me all this is providing support for a load to the task, i beleive this, SwingDutchman, tight lines, rigging hitch near C.o.B, slow, selftightening hinging, torguing limbs etc. does this to extremes, especially compounded together. If you can stack enough supports to balance with LoadForce, a load can float like a butterfly with grace to your target.

 

[Kevin]

Trees being different in fiber won't always react in the same manner.

 

[Kevin]

Ken, your mail box is full .

The problem as I see it is there are too many variables between species, age, climate etc.
What works well in one location on a specific tree may not react in the same manner under different conditions somewhere else.
I think trees are species specific even between similar hardwoods and similar softwoods, just too many variables to say this works well for all applications.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Thanx had 6 messages? small box!

i've done this for years; i think that it would work with a steel ball on the end of the stubb, with enough pressure into the a steel pocket of the hinge,not to need fibre, and move freely, for it what needs force holding the ball into the socket, and 2 solid mating surfaces.

The C.o.B. pushes down on the other side of the Load's HitchPoint, the slanted line comes back and is so tight, it compresses the load into the hinge, as it won't let the limb fall, and all that pressure seats the 'ball' into the 'joint' of the hinge, diverting the pressure from pulling down perhaps you could say. But it locks, and needs less fibre strength/flexability in the hinge, or can do more with what it has.

Applying this, swing dutchman, proper htichpoint ,high friction with a good cutter and ropeman can make a totaly diffrent game, from elements that are always present to be tapped in to. It can also allow you to see these elements in every rigging decision, being omnipresent.

Any hinge will seperate faster if you are pulling on it i think, and hold longer if you are compressing it, unless the compression causes mechanical failure by something crumpling and the tension that holds it together releasing from the slack of that happenning.

 

[Stumper]

Dang! Spydy, Some of that was hard to read. You gotta remember we don't all have multifaceted eyes to absorb your writings with. Your point has merit-and so does Kevin's. While I understand your point about negating the importance of hingefiber strength through mechanical processes The variables between various woods greatly effect the safety margins when we miscalculate. A difference between a minor loss of control and total disaster. I have used the technique you refer to and agree that it has merit but there are some species in which I never try to control large pieces-I don't trust them to behave.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

The pressure backwards is real, that is how it works. i generally use a sideways swing dutchman, or reduce that to sideways triangle hinge (lose BuriedKerf step up on bottom of hinge of swing dutchy makes triangle hinge) Because the piece removed for BureidKerf hinge at base of sideways hinging, has the most leveraged resistance to the spar slipping up off end and coming at you, for it is in the exact, antagonistic , extreme offside of the spars upward pull. But, the top part of the triangle hinge ushering sideways is in the most leveraged positioning to prevent the compression that would have to happen first.

If you can get enough pretension support before tearoff,and walk the hinge till it starts to breathe lightly on the extreme end (first place to notice movement); stop cutting back of a hair. To get this hinge to just barely fail, to walk the line between standing at a holde, and fail/fall, to fholde we need to remove some more fibre or load hinge more. Choosing loading more will save the fibre for a stronger hinge, this could be accomplished by pulling down on the extrem leveraged end from the hinge, or removing some support by feeding the system some slack or both.

Many times once you get the touch as to how much the hinge can be cut to just remotely fail, the ropeman can remotely trigger the hinge and it start to fail without you there, maaybe have to go back out and cut it free if it works too well! Studying it as ropeman allows some slack but maintains support, and you plink fibres to fholde point with a handsaw. A hand saw can let you make things fail slowly to witness..... A pole saw is another remote way to cause failure in a hinge close to fholding. Either scantly cutting hinge fibres remotely or pulling down on the opposite end to leverage failure with more fibre.

We just watch what we are doing, the pressures to me are evident to read, making the motions slow keeps forces low and gives plenty or reaction/adjustment time. Remote or barely failing with saw helps and ropeman finding jsut how much control he has. A nice hinge focalling to the side, can usher to that target as remotely loaded, ropeman metering force into the failing hinge lightly, will tend for load to drift into the path of least resistance, the face.

Some times control is so good, cutting down feeds gravity's grasp the C.o.B. empowering the machine, cutting across turns, so you can steer it carefully with ropeman, Move the hitchpoint from where it is to under the support for low swing force. This is yet another function of the longer length betwixt hinge and hitch, being used to advantage.

i don't realy mean to take the ball socket thing literally and eliminate fibre, just aid what you got! Aand realize how positive it can be that it could work without any at some point. Just something to stack to load support level.

We can get some graceful , slow movements with this routienly. Never have had one come back at me, but never gave it a chance. i don't think that it is any more compllicated/ dangerous than running a load that is supported from under it's orginal position.

Forcing more fibre helps too. This Low angle support strategy, is also a good wide/low tree strategy etc. Finding positive, powerful support, where i didn't before.

 

[murphy4trees]

I had an experience about ten years ago that I never quite figured out.. I think that I accidently stumbled onto Spidy's technique.. and until now I didn't understand how this thing possibly could have happenned...
I was removing a very dead oak and had one horizontal limb that was close to the antennae... I don't recall how I cut or rigged the limb, but I clearly remember this limb moving horizontally 90* before tear-off without dropping an inch.... It moved very slowly and smoothly... Weird... clearly the very dry oak did't have much hinging strength... so some other principles were working there...
I Am looking foward to field testing on some small stufff.
You can love your rigging blocks and high overhead anchors all week long and if this thing works as Spidy says and I believe.... Its a SWEET PIECE to carry in your bag-o-tricks...
Thanks again Spiderman...

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

One of the times that i tried to present this was a year or so ago. There was a question about the easiest surest way to handle a take down near the house.

i think i have better names and understanding for all of it now. This solution is obtainable in minimal climbing. We do this easily, just be careful and tap some of the power! Not all, choose the best hitch point, best hinge, tight line, give it every machined reason to work,and tap this a lil'on top of it! take it slow and easy, in surgical cuts and rigs. Learn when that works, and what you can witness when pushing it like a fine tuned engine breathing freely.

Notice that it all can be throwlined, except, i would let the climber place the final hitch facing the bottom side,a s it can come close to him/her. This actually employs leg on load, but will work without it, but is really someithing with it!

Sometimes the day is won by super supports, large gracefull loads, and smooth, multi use transistions of climber and rigging. And, if there was a zone to rig out undeneath limb, very sturdy shared supports to do that from here before foding leg up and hitching! More support than that right under? Steered better to tyhe side some? taake end before folding up to LegonLoad position, hitch end to helper support, and 2x1. Need more support rigging right under, taake same end of line down past helper support under, and back over the top and 3x1xfriction then sweat in. Redirect normally and with 2x1(arriving 1/2 way between supports, also easier to push around on the ground like curtain for reach on 2x1.

i will change from a swing dutchy to jsut a triangle hinge to usher sideways on this rig though.

the step isn't facilitated very much in the slower movemeent and the removal of the kerf for the step removes the most levareged point for resisting the limb coming up. widest part of triangle being at the best place to ressit compression to upward fold is fine, in faact preferable for that compared to an even strip hinge. For the triangle puts the biggest wad at the top for it is the offside to the pull against the hinge (down) when trying to move sideways off a roof. So losing the step makes safer and isn't very powerful do to it being maiximized in fast slamming motions, while we are seeking slow. The strength of this techniqque far outweighs swing dutchy.

i could walk this hinge to almost failure, back off some and groundie could have total control, slackening the line a tad, loads the hinge, if we have it right, he can hold and slip that thing and have it at total floating ballet, swivelling sideways. Many times it hangs parallel with the ground aand still hinged, tensioning off line folding down, still hooked. Wait till hitchpoint on load is directly under support for no pull, push. Safer yet, have groundie lower til firstlimb contact is between you and support, it will pull away when cutting free. Used this all day over a screened in enclosure over a pool Mon. some 15-20'+ limbs nicely pivoted out.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Let's Try that again!

 

[BigJohn]

Spidy, What are you talking about? Buddy you need to break this down in laymans' terms. We're not all as smart you. Like Mark Chisholm has said "keep it simple.

Big John

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i've tried to describe this as one of the most powerful of this strategy.

For this is just another example of designing a system, that on any loading, automatically starts an intense, immediate leveraged pull on the load. Any hair movement of the load, starts this by using immediate, intense restriction from the opposite direction. So this is done, after direction is determined in all cases. Running bowline, choke strap, triangle hinge, self-tightening rig, Self torquing rigs, LonL, ‘hinge pressure pocket’ etc., all invoke this power.

Physics will demand that the restriction match this power of tree movement, with equal power pulling back; place that pull on a leveraged part of the load.

i think that is what Daniel was saying about counter intuitive somewhat, looking to the opposite side.

 

[Stephen Wiley]

Concise, Clear and Organized

Spyder -

No doubt you wish to express yourself clearly.

Slow down,

Do not concern yourself with all of the possible scientific terms, illustrations (e.g.), engineering quantifiers of your ideas.

Make I make the suggestion (to help Big John and others) in reading your posts that you organize your description and use only one at the most two story illustrators. As they tend to pull the reader away from your thought process.

E.G.;

Cutting Techniques for Compression Wood

A.) Tip tying with direct inward pressure
1.) Line within 5 degrees of spar
2.) Line length to branch ratio: 5/10

B.) Tip tying with indirect pressure

The more concise and simple your thoughts, the better the chance of actually exercising and helping others to do likewise the same procedure.
-------------------------

Personal experience, has taught me that species will make a difference in the application of your techniques. Due largely inpart to structural growth or damage differences. E.G.; brash wood, included bark, structural defects.

Other factors branch weight, branch length, smaller knot weakness to parallel grain, etc.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

okay, just set it in a bind, directly restricting it from the opposite direction it moves with fibre, for ez, available, powerful control.

There is intense pressure buildable here, but you don't have to use it all. You can put part of the work of support, on the better hinge, then make that chosen hinge choose to fold in such a way as to be stronger rather than weaker.

Especially on weaker woods, you can set your face as a weak point in the structure, support with some pressure pushing back into hinge (maybe 30-45deg.), give some BackCut to near failure. Slacken line to remove some support, so hinge slowly fails, folding into face as weak point, with carefully metered support from intense-possible low angle overhead support. Walk tthe hinge through its arc, by just feeding it enough slack to fold, yet not tearoff because of the support. Strength of wood is less necessary here i think, especially not letting the wood completely pressurize from overhead, take it easy. Flexability can help on hinge.

There are other tricks, but in keeping it simple........

i have never had the failures from over pressurizing the system with this intense support, i don't seek to overpower, jsut carefully equalize. Realize there is a lot of power, and only use some of it. Look to let spar tilt down slightly or more, allow that much releif as a safety signal. Easy and natural.

Like any other simple machine you tweak, when the motion is light and smooth, the system in balance, nothing hanging up, almost self working; it has a grace and power ya know is right!

i try my best to explain, to me everything is connected, so i tend to explain from that as well as math. i can't tell you how many times i pulled out Dent's "Professional Timber Falling-a Procedural Approach" over the years, to distill and condensce his points to common points. i beleive i have a mental model of how all of the hinging factors work in my head, that totally aligns with and extends on naturally from that book; mostly as i have taken feller's hinge powers and turned them sideways into the tree rigging. This also allowed testing them and definfing them more by that expanded setting for me, furthering the model's definitions.

Before realizing i was using this stuff in the tree that where just as Dent described only sideways; i was using these same techniques. But, once i zeroed in on for sure and definitively, that i was, everything changed. Now i intensley did it and measured every response, i went back and studied Dent again to open this door wider, to concentrate, test and dare deliberately folowing more polished and perfect hinging and support.

So i guess, when it isn't exactly percieved as i tried to present, i just offer it again, and try to do better at that. i have been humbley doing this long enough, through many changes. This train of thought/strategies in the tree has been very immediately accessible on site and powerful to me, repeatedly successful, flexible, easily transitioning etc.

Once again at the most intense of the self setting rigging; it but brings me back to Dent alas! For as the triangle hinge applies highest leveraged force at a leveraged point on the bottom face/ top corner of the spar with wood fibre at a rear support angle (rigging), this applies highest leveraged force at a leveraged point on the side of the spar from on top, rear support angle with rope fiber! He got me again!


:alien:

 

[ORclimber]

Treespyder,
I understand the rope part of this, but am having a hard time visualizing the cut. Are you just facing in the direction you want it to swing? Then backcutting leaving more holding wood on the top side of the limb? I need to buy Dents book.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

exactly the same but diffrent......

rope fibre fights from opposite rear corner for greatest leveraged resistance to pull, immediately upon loading, same as hinge.

Always plot where the force will be moving from and to. Ffind the stretched and compressed wood. Put a relief of face to releive the compression (in horizontal limbs face dow, or down over); place the mosst fiber, where the wood is trying to stretch apart (top in horizontal limb), to control release from this post. Hinging is very important i think. Always visually gun the hinge to where you want it to end up, and cut if possible for the movement to be done without the hinge failing.

You know if you had a FaceCut from 9-o'clock to 3 o'clock it's gunned focal point woud be 6o'clock and that is possible. Folding against some of gravity's pull to a 5'oclock angle is a little more tricky, making a FaceCut from perhaps 2o'clock to 8'oclock. for a smooth machine use experience to pick a possible angle of descent that is dictated harmoniously by supports of hinge and line(s). Look at the roof the limb is over, generally tilting down offering more forgiveness as a limb would come across it. if you maintain same hieght off roof during sweep, your angle can gradually drop on limb, this going along with gravity lends power to the machine.

Sometimes with me steering, and empowering system with saw release joined with line intense line support like this, the movment is so light as the load skates feet over roofs, trees, antanaes etc. allowing releif of slight drop when poosible, that it seems these obstcles even have little forcefields keeping the load off of them!

With the far end heavy (green), everything right, no gutters etc., this is fairly safe to practice with some common sense. Even with a slight brush of soft limb at first trys, the force is moving sideways and not down.

i've dented hollow metal poles with a hammer, to give a kind of face, then played with bending them over to that face from diffrent angles, and releases from the rear with a grinder. The same hinging powers and principles hold true there too.

Of course knowing how far you can take a limb over a house and make the right notch as to throw it around sideways off the roof without a line support helps, then you do the same thing adding the line for more support, steering and security.

Here is a pic to partially answer hinge question, and it treats/introduces the factor of stacked ressitance; also using it's slow internal releif, for a slow moving hinge, that doesn't allow force to build through acceleration.

 

[ORclimber]

Thanks for the diagram and the idea, I'll give it a try.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

The hinge is a skill to polish, i think the only time a non-triangle hinge should be used (besides no face, dutchman kerf jumps-topping over fence jump) is in a pretty well center balanced spar; ie about never, there usually is an off balance pull and it should be dealt with!

The hinge pocket runs on 2 of my observations.

1) pulling back into the pocket gives better 'hang' time of sweep on less hinge (or more power security on same!), and pulling away less hang time on even more hinge.

2) self tightening rigs that you pretighten, then tighten automatically as they hinge over

All rigs should be considered for the angle of the lines pull/compression on hinge like hinge pocket deal

All rigs should be considered for their line tension to force ratio at start and any self tightening or loosening forces in process!

In my formulae of any rigging precut considerations, these are factors, that is my greatest lesson from all this! So i consider any effects in scanning rig every time. True i can use these to dial to the extreme end and make them work for me, but; they are always considerations, for now in that extreme i have seen their effect, that is always there in some form.

Just like understanding a dutchman, so you know what it will do, so you don't make one inadvertantly and invoke those forces. So as, look for line tension, and angle of pull to the side and to the back (or away) on hinge. these are always factors, whether forced into the extreme range like this or not, they affect the outcome, they are part of the formulae that defines the rigging and it's properties.

 

[murphy4trees]

Here's a removal I just got today... As you can see there is no high rigging point on this tree...I could just drop the tree, as there is room in the yard, and I'd like to try the hinge pocket pressure technique on that big limb going out to the left... In this situation I'll tie a block on the center stub and one on the opposite branch, and then use a prussic and 5:1 pulley system to get the lowering line tight... The high block will still be below the tie off point on the limb..
Do you think this is a good candidate for this technique... or should I wait for a better situation for the first try???

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Sorry, this would be difficult
the length for leverage is there if you tie about as shown, to the non existant place,

Even then i wound want more weight pulling down, like full head (usually low size and weight would help, but here weight outside the hitch is power)

usually i would say that you would have a horizontal limb and support at 30-45deg.

Here limb is at this angle, so line goes flat.

Don't try to keep this totally up let it fall slightly to depressurize slightly.

More like first pic. i would think is best.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

The pressure in the pocket is real, whether it comes up off the hinge depends on the hitchpoint on the spar and the C.o.B.

If the C.o.B. was between the hitch and the hinge the presure in the pocket would be down.

If the C.o.B. is on the otherside of the hitchpoint the pressure will be up.

Hitched at the C.o.B. the pressure would be back squarely into the hinge pocket.

So the intensity of the upward/ towards climber pressure can be lowered by having the hitchpoint just inside of the C.o.B.; the farther out the C.o.B. is the more upward pressure in the pocket.

This has been an evolution for me; whereby taking such notice/command of the C.o.B. was already well set in my practices.

Perhaps this is the more intense/dangerous force towards climber etc. that has been spoken of. Also, with this calculated corrrectly, you can more safely use the SwingDutchy, as the step kerf, could help lift to face, and cutting it would not be as risky as if the C.o.B. was placing a lot of upward pressure in the pocket . If this is the case not cutting the kerf would leave more leveraged position of fibre to keep the butt from coming up out of the hinge.

These are real forces, they can be invoked too much; but sprinkled on top of everything else done mechanically correctly, can give amazing results.

Just as with wood fibre in the hinge, the most leveraged position to place a rope fibre in is directly antagonistic to the pull, ie. opposite direction of limbs natural movement. This makes the widest arc from the movement, granting the most leverage. Just like a longer wrench, making a larger arc from work achieved. Using the leverage like this, increases your power and control over the movment.

These self tighrtening methods and forces i would not have found wearing spikes; only by relying on strategizing on the line and it's powers more thru this type of climbing brought me to these understandings. Taking those lessons and folding them into the rigging. When climbing i can feel these forces as i am the load on the line, as i sought to maximize that; i stepped on to these things. When line tension (pull) equals load force, float is achieved; whether for my puny load or larger. Strategic placing of these pulls and angles all adds up to work that is achievable with a given system.

These ssystems wwork better with more length and weight; as they are now on your side and not against you.

or something like that!


:alien: