Snags...yuck. There's a lot about working in the woods that I miss. Snags don't even make the top ten.
Hinge Thickness For Falling Large Diameter Trees?
- Thread starter SteveSr
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Well, all the numbers you cite...10%-this, 45"-that...seem like they might be coming out of a class for beginners. And, not absolute requirements which apply to advanced fallers.
But, I don't know all that much about the USFS.
I am surprised you can't say to the Forest..."We have a tree we've started on...but, now we need a FAL1 to come out and finish the tree." I suspect, that dude will show up with a long-enough bar.
Roy
That particular beast had been dead and standing longer than it should have. The person who finally got through to folks that it must come down was ......a production faller. His kid rode the school bus by there. He said if he had to cut it, he'd get his dad to come and tell him how to do it as he was not sure how to attack it. His dad fell timber for a living and even had a crew during the old days. So, the contract guy ended up doing it.
firekindler
ArboristSite Member
I would post a spotter with a lifeguard's whistle far enough from the tree I was cutting to not likely be affected by any negative outcomes. There, he could see the top of the tree I'm cutting better than being near me at the stump along with the rest of the surrounding canopy. Even with 33nrr earplugs and my largest saw, I would hear that whistle if he warned me to access my escape route. That system saved my bacon more than once, and got a number of compliments from safety officers on wildfires.
I made good money falling snags but the aggravation wasn't worth it. After one blew up and went sideways on me I can remember thinking "I'm over sixty years old...I shouldn't have to be able to run that fast".
SteveSr
Addicted to ArboristSite
I believe that this same course (and material) is used for ALL USFS sawyers, A, B, and C. C is the advanced sawyer designation.
Yes...only one course.
But, in actuality, that one course, and the associated materials, can be seen as really a beginner course. For example, advanced fallers are authorized to cut things like 50" trees, which are currently on fire, in a tight canopy, with a side lean. How much of that S-212 course is focused on that sort of thing?
I guess, one could look at it, and say...S-212 has all the methods and standards needed for that 50" tree.
But, that's not the way I see it.
The USFS stopped using the ABC system quite a few years ago. Not that some of the guys don't continue to speak in those terms. All federal fire agencies use FAL1, 2, 3 now. With FAL1 being advanced.
I have reason to believe there may be non-fire federal chainsaw courses/certifications. For trail or maintenance guys. But, that one sentence is all I know about that. Ha.
Anyway...did someone get that tree on the ground?
Roy
SteveSr
Addicted to ArboristSite
Not to my knowledge. This is for ALL USFS saw operators and USFS personnel.
There may be and likely are differences when it comes to professional timber falling and wildfire fighting
USFS personnel use the same course as the volunteers. Here is a link to the program.
https://www.fs.usda.gov/inside-fs/out-and-about/national-saw-program-updates
Yes, but I was not involved. It turns out that the section that I decided to notch was the worst part of the tree! The rest of the trunk had pretty good fiber in it.
Former B bucker here! That sounds impressive, no? When in the office, high fives with other B buckers took place.
However, when asked by a timber faller how I'd fall a tree, I had to reply that I was only qualified to buck up trees and would have to lie down on my side and look up to replicate the bucking stance and would rather not do that because the ground was too dampish.
Then had to listen to him rant about being told he had to go through the certification process if he wanted to work as a volunteer and fall hazard trees. The rant was pretty good, pointing out that he had all the safety gear--glasses in his pocket and chaps in the pickup up on the road...I had to listen to this rant a few times. The guy was a good faller too.
However, when asked by a timber faller how I'd fall a tree, I had to reply that I was only qualified to buck up trees and would have to lie down on my side and look up to replicate the bucking stance and would rather not do that because the ground was too dampish.
Then had to listen to him rant about being told he had to go through the certification process if he wanted to work as a volunteer and fall hazard trees. The rant was pretty good, pointing out that he had all the safety gear--glasses in his pocket and chaps in the pickup up on the road...I had to listen to this rant a few times. The guy was a good faller too.
Oops. Looks like I was wrong, and the USFS still uses the ABC thing.
Yes...the professional fallers on fires are not part of the normal qualification system.
If you ever get out to that tree again, it would be cool to post a pic of the stump.
Roy
I don't think it was said here that for a tree like that you NEED a saw/bar that can get R done, nibbling away with undersized equipment is not a good plan. "Round these parts red Oak rots outside in. BUT they are often hollowed out at the base by ants. More often than not you're dealing with a ring of hold wood of varying thickness. Not fun. A plunge cut will often give you a good idea of whats (not) inside.
Just an amateur's story;
I did an elm, nearly the same situation over 4' DBH, bark off up high, limbs had begun busting off.
In a field, fall to the heavy side no problem. Being an open field gray elm it had massive trunks/branches in every direction.
066 with a 28" bar.
No pull rope. (it would have been nice).
got the bark off all around.
Made escape paths, made the notch. seeing what I had inside, mebby a 1/3 of the trunk. Being elm the fiber near the ground was compromised but not punk yet.
I tend to cut at convenient standing, not bent over height. Often helps to get above the worst of a hollow base.
My buddy had a 30 foot cord tied to my waste with instructions to keep his eyes high and make a warning tug if anything looked sketchy.
Made my back cut, watching and listening. Back cut was just showing signs of opening and I could hear fibers starting to snap deep inside.
Shut off the saw, walked way back with my bud and sat on my haunches. He was all why aren't you finishing dropping it?
Told him I was just taking a water break,
I could hear snapping as more fibers let go deep inside. Took about 5 minutes before it went over. We were nicely back from any widow maker limbs. None broke off of this tree.
That tree still had parts 30' in the air after it was on the ground.
Pics are a red oak I did similar to yours, but not quite as big.
One downside of cutting higher is, more likely to find nails from no trespassing signs. Yep found one with the saw in that oak trunk.
Barbed wire hidden inside fence row trees another fun thing.
Doing Samaritan's Purse volunteering in North Carolina they wanted me to get this tree by the service drop pole on the ground and cut up..
There was (what had been a nice) food plot tractor and mower inside the shed that was a foot deep in the dirt from the flood. "Don't damage the tractor" Tree was on the root ball, it was just held up by the partly pushed over shed. Trunk bark was full of rocks and mud. Flood water had been up to that red line!!! I had looked it over before they asked. They have a way of putting on pressure to "get things done for the nice people". Just me and my saw with a bunch of "helpers", I declined to do it. Three were WAY too many different stresses, gotchas for a "get it done before we leave today". We cleaned up, hauled off all the greenhouse remains instead.
Just an amateur's story;
I did an elm, nearly the same situation over 4' DBH, bark off up high, limbs had begun busting off.
In a field, fall to the heavy side no problem. Being an open field gray elm it had massive trunks/branches in every direction.
066 with a 28" bar.
No pull rope. (it would have been nice).
got the bark off all around.
Made escape paths, made the notch. seeing what I had inside, mebby a 1/3 of the trunk. Being elm the fiber near the ground was compromised but not punk yet.
I tend to cut at convenient standing, not bent over height. Often helps to get above the worst of a hollow base.
My buddy had a 30 foot cord tied to my waste with instructions to keep his eyes high and make a warning tug if anything looked sketchy.
Made my back cut, watching and listening. Back cut was just showing signs of opening and I could hear fibers starting to snap deep inside.
Shut off the saw, walked way back with my bud and sat on my haunches. He was all why aren't you finishing dropping it?
Told him I was just taking a water break,
I could hear snapping as more fibers let go deep inside. Took about 5 minutes before it went over. We were nicely back from any widow maker limbs. None broke off of this tree.That tree still had parts 30' in the air after it was on the ground.
Pics are a red oak I did similar to yours, but not quite as big.
One downside of cutting higher is, more likely to find nails from no trespassing signs. Yep found one with the saw in that oak trunk.
Barbed wire hidden inside fence row trees another fun thing.
Doing Samaritan's Purse volunteering in North Carolina they wanted me to get this tree by the service drop pole on the ground and cut up..
There was (what had been a nice) food plot tractor and mower inside the shed that was a foot deep in the dirt from the flood. "Don't damage the tractor" Tree was on the root ball, it was just held up by the partly pushed over shed. Trunk bark was full of rocks and mud. Flood water had been up to that red line!!! I had looked it over before they asked. They have a way of putting on pressure to "get things done for the nice people". Just me and my saw with a bunch of "helpers", I declined to do it. Three were WAY too many different stresses, gotchas for a "get it done before we leave today". We cleaned up, hauled off all the greenhouse remains instead.
SteveSr
Addicted to ArboristSite
You are in luck! The perpetrators were kind enough to send me a photo of the stump.
Notice all of the punky wood to the right of the hinge. The rest of the tree was pretty solid.
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