How do you use "gunning" marks on a saw?

[TheTreeSpyder]

i grew up learning that thinking outside of the Box, din't have to be so sir-real even if others didn't go along, like a seperate Life.

Kinda a you try it, noy you try it, no you;
Let's get Mikey to try it;
He won't try it
He don't like anything
kinda re-deal

So, like they used to say;
Who wants to be like Mike?
Ooooooooooops, sorry, wrong thread; i think Mike's knew logo is "Don't T(h)read on Me"



i guess not always necessary; i can see uses both ways; different uses for different times

Stumper has made a proper sounding theory, that the wood is better medium as a hinge long and thin, rather than short/fat. Mechanically it could fight sidelean better with a longer, levraged run of the hinge i think.

But time, gas and chainlife etc. might make ya ask if it is worth it with other avenues/shallower face. take power away from a forward leaner

Undermining the C.o.B. more in a balanced, shallow, or back leaner could definitely put some things positively on your side quickly as a deeper face strategy i would think. Also to give more power to push cleaner through side or front obstachles to the fall.

Or to give more lean to target, for more power pulling to that point; to pull more cleanly through, distracted less by the sidelean axis. Also, sets pivot of hinge in wider part of stump, to give sidelean less lean as calculated from C.o.B. to hinge pivot, as a compounding factor.

Also, some of the extra cutting for open deep face, is done easier, by flat flooring the bottom face, instead of cutting up against gravity, then extra slanting topcut that is easier to do, as you guide lightly as gravity pulls saw down. i think that is what Daniel tried to show before on disgustion about if an open face has to have a dropped floor, or as he pointed out, just open top wider, and let saw ride down on it's own, then for bottom face, flat floor to.

Or something like that.

 

[igetbisy]

the gunning sight is on most saws, some people use the handle, as long as whatever you use is perpendicular to the bar, it will work fine, set your dogs, make sure that the bar is all the way in the cut, all the way from one side to the other, and look down your gunning sight, that's where the tree should fall, given there are no unusual circumstances, and your backcut is correct.


OR, take a carpenters square, once the pie cut is out, put the square against the back of the notch, and mark the line perpendicular to the cut then, standing in front of the notch, line your saw up with the pencil line, and bore through the tree. blow the hole out, walk around and look through the hole. whatever you see through the hole will be destroyed by the falling tree.

 

[jamie]

gunning

gunning lines point where the tree is to fall (just to reiterate what others have said). i find that looking where its going, checking and rechecking always help. when the gob is cut, i find standing in line and checking again helps....

as for cut sizes i have always been told, 20 - 25% for the gob and a hinge of 10% works best.....none of this 3/4 gobs....

we have pinoneerd a new back cut, we were burning a couple of big pine, had the fire next to a skinny (3") sycamore pole (Acer psuedoplatnus) and well the fire burnt through the tree...viola the flaming backcut.....

jamie

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i guess what ever you are comfortable with, that serves the same purpose; that you use most pro-efficiently.

i see a common denominator of geometry and mechanichs that i would true my system to; i believe we talk of a mathematical definition as a basis for this. Givng confidence of accuracy by following the math, through whichever device we use.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Jeeze, can't I give you a little crap Murph, without you writing a two post answer, with pictures of your giant, goofy angle notches? Save yourself some wear and tear on that poor bar and cut both the roof and floor angles the same on those open face notches.

And Spyder, you're writing poetry about my antics now? Take it to the fight thread.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

One more thing Spydy, what the heck do you think we have for moniters on our computers? Some giant, big screen, movie theater screens? Your drawings are bigger than one of Murphy's notches! Did you ever hear of resize?

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Sorry, i'll try and watch it;
i am running 21"...
no really.

And i did chant your name in the thread, and now all over!

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Whatever size those drawings are, they don't fit on my 8" screen and clog up my Commadore 64 computer.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I've got 10" on ya, Mike.

Wal-Mart.

LCD.

 

[Nickrosis]

I'm using a 3.5" TFT screen on my handheld since I don't need to compensate.

 

[Husky372]

hey nick if its handheld i quess it really does'nt matter what size it is

 

[murphy4trees]

HI Mike

MM wrote:

pictures of your giant, goofy angle notches

The problem with a staement like the above is that some newbie might read it and think you have the slightest idea about the subject... Flat out..... dis'in the open face notch like that is a diservice to the readers here... In my judgment you lack an open mind on this one, which is surprising coming from an arborist of your skill and experience....

Look at what Arbormaster is saying, Tim Ard, Mark Chisholm, Weyerhouser, and all loggers' trainings are teaching...
The conventional notch is old school... about as much use in modern arboriculture as the tautline hitch.....

Correction: "about as much use in modern arboriculture as the tautline hitch" is a bad analogy... I retract the statement.

 

[rbtree]

Sorry murph, but I diasgree...There's lots of reasons for 25-50 degree notches.....when aloft...for making a top pop off and land flat, for helping a stick to rotate less and land better....

and on the ground, a nice straight conifer will be well committed and fall just fine with a 40-50 degree notch.

But check MM's words, he didn't say not to use an open face, he said to drop the floor cut down, so that the top cut is easier...less of a ripping cut.

 

[rborist1]

:Eye:

 

[Nickrosis]

And I think MM was talking about the notch that was greater than 70* or whatever yet didn't go into the tree more than an inch. In my mind, that's a goofy notch, too. Not really a cause for a battle around here....

 

[a_lopa]

when roping a limb down one or more ropes attached,most times you shouldnt have to put a notch in anyhow let it tear off where you want it to go especially if you want to deflect it and are already holding its weight why scarfe it?only adds danger eg using two ropes to move limb one side of tree to the other in situations where there is no hang room

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i think that the cuts are mechanical commands, in machine language/code to the hinge and face machines both.

So there are times when you want to only allow so much movement before the faces force tearoff; like so a top doesn't get hung, or facing a hill, a crane lifting up, a rig lifting up- by the time it gets to where the line is pulling straight from the hinge to the pulley-you want the faces to be narrow enough to force tearoff.

i beleive the tapered hinge provides best support to an offside load. The same forward felling forces imposed on a normal strip hinge, would have to bend over fibers on the rear -lean side of hinge; this is a waste of forward force i think. As the tree leans over on the hinge; that side that 'cost' so much of the available forward force; returns very lil support to the heavy-first moving heavy side/C.o.B. The same amount of forward moving force applied to a tapered hinge, releived of the load of bending the rear fibers of hinge on the lean side; will now use it's forward force to bend more fibers on the control side, for a higher return from the strategic use of the forward moving force available of lean, line and wedge. This will give more travel slower on hinge i think. In a hinge the increasing leveraged weight through the arc of felling might rip the hinge before the faces meet; the heavy side would cause this first; this gives more support to the heavy side that is pulling; addresses the C.o.B. directly with more. i use all my actions to address the C.o.B.; it is the lead force, and if it don't move,neither does the rest IMLHO.

Which makes a wide face knotch a perfect compliment to the tapered hinge. The angle of the faces would dictate the outside constraint on the amount of movement on the hinge. Hinge strength and flexability (lacks of) might cause tearoff before reaching the outer constraint of the face angles/allowable sweep. So both permit more travel on hinge, one might said to be a waste in some situations without the other.

As far as having all of that open face angle on the top face like Daniel has tried to show; it looks just like a text book example of what Tim Ard and Mike Bolin recomend and picture in their "Forest Applications Training" (FAT?); and exactly as pictured in the "notching Tips" option of Tim's Tips .

None of which is gospel; but hopefully the sources Daniel learned the technique from, his own experience, and it being pictured for training etc.

i think that dropping the floor makes that more of a ripping cut in trade, and at least with Daniel's option the weight of the saw is being powered by gravity as it makes the cut on top. Arm powered on bottom cut coming up; also Daniel walke the learning curve with it i think he said in another thread for having the power of an open face, almost flat on the ground for most leverage too added to the formulae, and no stump cut to boot. i think there are 2 places to set/adjsut the mechanical command of how much sweep on the hinge to have as an outside constraint.


Aussie i think your technique works fine sometimes, using the compression underneath as some of the support pushing up and not cutting into the compression. Cutting more to the neutral fibers on the side as not to pinch. i think it makes more ripping fiber in the cut, and should not be made any where near a branch collar to be pre-served. None of the disturbed fiber should end up in the final cut i think.


Or something like that..........
:alien:

P.S. i could use a pic or referance to drawing etc. to give me a better idea of what fills the screen best without scrolling around sideways. i got this $100 21" monitor 3 years ago at the computer show, so none of 'em give me that problem, i tried to guess; but had not the perspective.

i had a TRS80; never had the Commodore; i'm not that kind of guy.

Mr. Morally bankrupt, i did have to take it to the fight thread, even had to start without ya, whenst ya din't show. i magine you were practicing laying there bleeding and moaning so that you will look good for the crowd? Waht is the tree fight about write now? When was the last time you dared go thar?

 

[murphy4trees]

OK,
My bad... it was a bad analogy.... written in haste.... might have been better to say "use in falling trees" instead of

about as much use in modern arboriculture as the tautline hitch.....

Of course then there are guys like the Master out there that are still getting the job done with the tautline , but I wouldn't want to give trhe impression I was advocating the tautline....

And yes there are plenty of variable that would make a smaller notch desireable. I'll give one example of RB's point as a pennance here... When falling the top from in the tree, if the log or top tumbles past horizontal and comes down tip first, the but of the piece can kick back past the base of the tree, damaging whatever might be there. Or if the tip spears into the ground the butt can "spring" forward far away from the tree. Thus the need to lay the top down flat.... And in critical situations some prefer to use the humboldt to create a ramp for the butt to slide off the tree...
Here's the top of an 80'+ fir I removed yesterday, in a tight backyard... I cojuld have blocked it down, but used a conventional notch to make it fall flat..

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Originally posted by Nickrosis
And I think MM was talking about the notch that was greater than 70* or whatever yet didn't go into the tree more than an inch. In my mind, that's a goofy notch, too. Not really a cause for a battle around here....

Nick, you haven't come to know me very well, to say something as dumb as anything is not cause for battle.

I don't have a problem with an open face notch. I was teasing Murph about the way he and Tim Arndt cut their open face notches. It's just that I'm lazy and don't to waste time or wood.
If you're cutting firewood, a huge notch wastes a good part of the log and makes it hard to split, along with leaving two big sections of sniglets (odd size firewood that can't be sold for full retail), you end up with the notch wood and the half a piece of log.
If you're using the wood for lumber, a big notch really wastes the wood. The log is sold by length, to a square end.

Look at my drawing. It's easier and faster to cut a normal open face, than an MGGAN (Murphy Giant Goofy Angle Notch).

 

[a_lopa]

yeah spida, i usually leave just a tip in the direction i wnt it to go either way is fine really it just works a bit better for control when cradling i think not as much jerk less room for error but thats only my opinion.you have to know your species how it hangs on but thats all part of it