How to figure working loads?

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Joe,

I didn't read all the way to the last two pages of that thread when your energy equations were finally converted into impact force.

But those calcualted forces were based on arbitrary assumptions about the deceleration distance.

With an assumption of 3.5", the force was about 87 lbs. With an assumption of 6" the force was about 56 lbs. That's a big difference.

What's missing from these calculations is an actual parameter for spring rate (or modulus of elasticity) of the lanyard or of the bull rope if calculating the force of a falling log.

Without that datum, it's impossible to calculate peak impact force.


- Robert
 
No more than 200 lbs. if my math and physics are right and assuming you're saying 10% of the breaking strength is an acceptable working load.

The block is rated at 4000 lbs for a breaking strength. Working load of 400 lbs.

With the log on one end of the rope, you have 200 lbs. pulling on the block. The other end of the rope is held with an equal and opposite force of 200 lbs. That equals 400lbs, the working load limit of the block.

It seems like 10% is selling the block short on strength....I'd personally feel comfortable taking more and having a smaller margin of safety on the working load limit.

If you let the pieces run, you will have a lesser load on the pulley and can take bigger pieces, but if you shock load it, you will have to take much smaller pieces. Gets back to my favorite principle of just cut smaller...
 
what are you lowering?a limb heavier than the whole tree,come on pine 600kg m2 the heaviest hardwoods around 1.2t per m2
 
i always took Joe's examinations et al to be of the highest force to prep the rigging for, as to be caught statically/ have no give; then factor the give etc. in perhaps, or just leave it prepped for maximum force posible output to cover all contingencies and possible errors. Plus as previously noted over the years, whatever the force is, how it is recieved by the support enters a whole lot more numberscratching, then if the degree of the lean of the support changes; it just keeps going with trails of figures...... So, looking at the max output of force, and fortifying for it, then; perhaps saying, well it is a lil less or here or there deaccelerated or deflected to make things even more comfortable, closer to real has become the order? And understanding when more impacted line length gives some of the buffering of dynamic force etc.

As like, we might say that a block supporting a lod has a 2/1 pull on it, but it actually doesn't have quite that much unles the legs out of the block are parallell.

In the dropping chainsaw example of the 'fer Pete's Sake' thread; we were looking for the input force into the deacceleration machine of a chainsaw lanyard etc.

So while RescueRob's numbers are more exact that he shares, i'm not sure that Joe inteneded to take it that 'low'; just show the pattern for possible loading in the scenario, to make sure that the rigging etc. can take.

One heck of an education we get either way though! Especially from the introduction of RescueRob; bringing higher science and strategies from the rescue field. Rob, you got me on pulley puzzle at TB; i can't think outside of the box of the solution i tried to present; even though try to keep the thinking freed up!! So, if ya kindly would post the solution back there, i'd appreciate it!

i've been trying to figure out how to use this spreadsheet to figure things. It is for the acceleration, velocity and air friction offffffffffff.......... Falling Pumpkins ! So i drop it off here, fer some more help from ya's, it is about the only thing i could find near to calculating forces in feet!

Thanx guys,
-KC
 
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Originally posted by Nickrosis
The block is rated at 4000 lbs for a breaking strength. Working load of 400 lbs. It seems like 10% is selling the block short on strength....

4000 lbs is the WLL - working load limit for a typical block. The 10% SWL is only for software - rope and webbing - that can take a beating.

I don't know what the Arborist standard is but for most non-life support rigging, a 5:1 safety factor is considered sufficient.

- Robert
 
By the way...

I also find the ISA forum to be horribly difficult to use - very user UNfriendly.

- Robert
 
Originally posted by RescueMan
I don't know what the Arborist standard is but for most non-life support rigging, a 5:1 safety factor is considered sufficient.


You are correct there. I just took a course involving this. In the US it is 5:1 and here it is 2:1. It was explained so people would understand the WWL on American products.

.02

As far as complaining about boards, etc. I just ask - Have you ever created anything? A board or an article for a mag?


Whenever I climb I am followed by a dog called 'Ego'. - Nietzsche
 
Originally posted by Nathan Wreyford
As far as complaining about boards, etc. I just ask - Have you ever created anything? A board or an article for a mag?

I have written an article for publication in the next issue of Advanced Rescue Techology, but I don't know what that has to do with anything.

I don't hear anyone putting down those who created the ISA board, just simply stating that it is a poorly formatted board which is likely discouraging broader use.

If I've never been a doctor, then, I have no right to complain about the care I receive.

If I've never been a lawyer, I can't complain about the curruption of the legal system.

If I've never been a president, I have no right to complain about Bush.

I don't follow your logic.

- Robert
 
Notice why the I.S.A. web board was brought up. Some1 made a suggestion to visit the archives to get an answer. Some1 whined about it and almost killed this thread. That web board is just fine. I like the format, I like the contents there, I like what the people who post there have to say, I like the participation rate. I'll continue to be a certified arborist and an I.S.A. member. The negative attitudes here won't change it for me.

I knew of a thread at this board which had something to do with the topic. I showed where to find it. You people would rather kill this thread and fight than learn? O.K.

Rescueman: Kenny nailed the purpose of the end results of that thread. It was presented to show a procedure to figure force from a falling anything. A saw on a lanyard happen to be the example. I simply corrected the math.
Notice at the very end of the oh for pete's sake thread an interested civil engineer figured things the same way as the 1st person. There's nothing wrong with wanting precision in calculations from real world data. It looks though, that if you want that, precision from real world scenarios and data, you need to be the 1 to give it.

Joe
 
Originally posted by RescueMan
I don't follow your logic.

- Robert

There is a difference between critcism and random spazing.

Since you seem so familiar with the ISA archives, perhaps you could look it up and copy it here. The biggest problem with the ISA archives is the crappy forum software they got conned into using and navigation is tedious at best. A person unfamiliar with their setup could spend hours getting frustrated without finding the desired information. Otherwise maybe we could simply ignore the crappy ISA forum just as everyone has been doing for the last 3 years.

Hope that is clear. I was just urging people to be part of a solution if they see a problem. Pissing and moaning accomplishes little.

;)
 
...and searching for something here is no different than searching for something there or through any search engine for that matter. One needs to know what to look for before some1 else's solution to a problem can be found.

Joe
 
Reply

Murphy, I under stand what your saying. It's bes to know what you're dealing with along whith how and why it all works. If you don't you are increasing your chances to get hurt or maybe even killed. Thanks, BB

Please let me know if I've miss understood you.:jester:
 
I've tried to do searches on this forum and it can get If the word I want to search for doesn't have enough characters can Brian tell me how to find the thread?

Say, if I want to find a thread that had something to do with "ISC" products. How do I run a search?

This isn't a smart-mouthed response, I'm serious. This has frustrated me from the begining and I can't figure out a work-around. When I poke around on forums I like the ones where people help each other out. Copping attitudes is a good way to kill things it seems.

Dan wrote:
Maybe if some people didn't staunchly defend everything ISA the ISA would get the message.

I'm in a rather unique position. An ISA Life Member, MN Society of Arb [ISA chapter Life Member], I've been pretty active on the arbo discussion forums going back to about the third month that the ISA forum existed [this was back in the ancient days of '96 or '97], and a co-owner of another arbo website/forum. So what? It's not that I defend "everything ISA" because I sure don't. When there has been a problem, I take it up with the webmaster instead of just whinning and spraying about things. Darin and I have exchanged a few hot ones but we're still talking, heck, we're going to be neighbors in a few weeks so I hope he isn't too pi**ed at me :) The ISA forum is a low priority of the ISA, that's common knowledge. So what? I've been on many company websites that are out of date, does that mean the company should be flamed? I don't think so. Maybe reminded that its' time to update though.

There are people on this forum that have stronger loyalties to their chainsaws, ropes and dogs than I do for the ISA. If they get flamed I've seen defenders come out of the woodwork. So what?

To wnader back on-topic, Joe, Robert and others have done a lot to lead us to a better understanding of the physics of rigging in this thead and on the other arbo forums too. Thanks a lot gang!

Tom

Dan

Tom
 
Originally posted by RescueMan
4000 lbs is the WLL - working load limit for a typical block.
That would make sense.

As arborists, though, we're still told to abide by the 10% rule. If I was to undercut that and break something, I would be in a far weaker position to defend myself. If 20% was being taught by Arbormaster or others, I would feel more comfortable. If they say 10%, I'll go with that.
 
Working Load Limit (WLL) and Safe Working Load (SWL) are the same thing.

Neither refers to the weight of the piece.

They both refer to the heighest force experienced by the rigging through the course of a single rigging cycle.

The confusion seems to stem from the term 'load'.

'Load' is used to refer to the piece itself, it is used to refer to the weight of the piece, and it is used to refer to the force that is generated by the piece.

I think that the calculations presented in this thread (and elsewhere) are extremely useful to understand what is happening in rigging systems, but there are a lot of variables in the working world. In the dynamometer trials that I have read, seen, and done, the force generated by a piece that is allowed to run can be approximately 3 to 7 times the weight of the piece. A piece that is snubbed off can generate a force that is about 10 to almost 20 times the weight of the piece. The range of numbers results from the variety of equipment and applications that were used in order to simulate real working situations.

I have long thought that the 10:1 safety factor (i.e. the WLL is 10% of the breaking strength of the rope) is unrealistic. Keeping in mind that WLL refers to the highest force experienced by the rigging through the whole rigging operation, if you run some numbers, you will find that a 10:1 safety factor requires equipment that is impractical, even for medium sized trees. The industry is just beginning to address this topic, but I think that in the next few years there will be a shift in the ratings. There are already a couple of publications that are moving towards different recommendations for setting up rigging systems.

Mahk
 
Originally posted by Mahk
Working Load Limit (WLL) and Safe Working Load (SWL) are the same thing.

Neither refers to the weight of the piece.

They both refer to the heighest force experienced by the rigging through the course of a single rigging cycle.

Yes, SWL, WLL, MWL, rated load, rated capacity are synonymous.

But I don't think there is any universal definition of any of those terms.

For instance, the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), which sets the standards for rope rescue in the US, uses these definitions:

MWL: weight supported by the life safety rope and system components that must not be exceeded.

MBS (minimum breaking strength): the result of subtracting 3 standard deviations from from the mean result of destructive testing of 5 samples from the same lot.

Proof Load: the application of force to a material as a non-destructive test to verify the performance of that material; the applied proof load is usually well above the allowable service load but low enough so as not to damage the material being tested.

NFPA requires a 15:1 static system safety factor (SSSF) to allow for some expected shock loading of rope systems. However they state that anything more than a 0.25 fall factor generates unacceptable impact loads.

Boatsafe.com: Safe working load of 1/5 means the breaking strength should be five times the weight of the object the line is going to hold.

Lift-it.com (a steel rigging site): Work Load Limit is the maximum recommended load that should be exerted on the item.

Mahk, if you have any official definitions of SWL for the arborist industy I'd like to see references.

- Robert
 
i think the standards are from other industries that cross referance, sometimes from the manufacturers themselves.

i think that SWL not only speaks for the one time occurance of that rig, but maintanance of the gear (especially synthetics) insamuch as to not push the gear to it's upper end of use, reducing the cycles of use drastically, and setting up a future failure when there would be none.

i also think that the SWL should be set to the expected LoadForce(speed X weight), not just the Load. And the ratio of forgiveness of SWL cover knots, small calculation errors and soft bends etc.; not the speed multiplier or too tight of bends (other misc. miss-handling of gear).

i think calculating the LoadForce sets the outside constraints of the forces, then we work from within there understanding dynamic absorbtion of the forces etc.; but still set the shell architecture to withstand safely the max load capable (usually not calculating 'finesseing', just appreciating it as making everything better).

Falling force is very potent. The force though is calculated by 1/2 the weight multiplied by the speed squared!! Making, acutally (IMLHO) the speed factor as much more important to the total force i think. so tipping/flexxing over on the hinge to be gently as possible handed off to a pre-stretched line to not induce acceleration is vewry helpfull i think.

Snubbing can induce more loading, but running just enough to not let load accelerate, then snubbing rest of force into the ground can be an effective strategy i think.

The LoadForce is the outside constraint on the force the sytem takes on; but the BrakeForce that the system gives is actually the amount of the LoadForce that the system takes on in loading(?).

This gets my vote as a 5 star thread!



:alien:
 
all SWL will be different on actual breaking strain it will have a built in safety factor of whatever 5 or 10, herc alloy lifting chain in good condition or steel wire take alot of breaking, as we all know ropes are another whole ball game with alot different factors sunlight and grit dont affect herc alloy as in rope a lttle slip while frictioning isnt a bad thing better than an all out jerk and better on the climber
 
Originally posted by RescueMan
Yes, SWL, WLL, MWL, rated load, rated capacity are synonymous.

But I don't think there is any universal definition of any of those terms.

Mahk, if you have any official definitions of SWL for the arborist industy I'd like to see references.

- Robert


Robert;

My original post disappeared into cyber space. What I posted above is a hastily typed and somewhat abbreviated version of what I originally wrote. Some of the missing statements that I should have included are

--these definitions are for the arborist industry (and, more narrowly, the arborist industry in the US), which is really just beginning to understand and define these concepts

--the measured dynamometer forces that I mentioned occur at various places in the system; for :



"...the force generated by a piece that is allowed to run can be approximately 3 to 7 times the weight of the piece."



the 3x's occurs at the friction device and in the lowering line, while the 7x's occurs at the block and sling. For:


"A piece that is snubbed off can generate a force that is about 10 to almost 20 times the weight of the piece."



the '10 to almost 20X's' occurs at the block and sling. The forces at the friction device and in the rope itself are about half of what occurs at the block and sling.

SWL and WLL are the terms that most often appear in various training media. I hadn't considered MWL, rated load, and rated capacity.

I am not sure what you mean by 'official'. To my knowledge the various ANSI standards are the only publications that have any obligatory bearing on the work that arborists perform. But,there are other texts that heavily influence what we do and how we define things.

'Arborist Equipment' (1995), by Don Blair, and its cousin the two video set and workbook 'Rigging for Removal'(1998), published by the then NAA, now TCIA, led the arborist industry into technical tree removal and are still important references.

Another, more recent, work, the 8 video set and workbook 'The Art and Science of Practical Rigging' was published in 2001 by the ISA. The core text was written by Peter Donzelli, a mechanical engineer and assistant professor of biomedical engineering. He was killed in 2000, before the videotaping of the training series, and the text was edited and amended by Sharon Lilly of the ISA. ArborMaster Training collaborated with the ISA on the entire project. ArborMaster and ISA have been the principle (but not the only) trainers and educators in the industry in recent years.

Unfortunately, none of the above works gives as explicit a definition as I have. In AE and R for R that definition of SWL can be gleaned by cross referencing definitions of other terms, but it is not directly stated. For example, in AE p. 101, in a reprinted monograph from the Cordage Institute, it is stated "Total potential load (TPL) is the weight to be lifted, towed, restrained, suspended or secured. TPL applies not just in a static condition, but in a dynamic condition as well....dynamic forces with a total potential load that may well exceed, sometimes substantially, the static weight of the load..." [Note that 'weight' is used to mean both pounds and pounds force. More confusion.] And p. 102 "The TPL applied to a cord or rope should never exceed the WLL."

This has been long, so I will try to make the rest less detailed.

In ASPR the definition of WLL is "...tensile strength divided by design factor; maximum load that should not be exceeded in a rope or rope assembly when performing its normal working function."

This really doesn't help. ISA's next publication on climbing and rigging (a DVD to be released (hopefully) in August) will give a more specific definition. I have assisted in some of the ISA's publications so it may seem that I am trying to support my own viewpoint, but I did not create the definition that the ISA uses for WLL. I have only encouraged the ISA to make the definition more precise.

Again, it helps to plug some numbers into both definitions and then compare them to the dynamometer tests.

Mahk
 
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