Humboldt vs. Conventional

[Hatchville Homesteader]

I am not convinced the humbolt keeps the the tree from jumping the stump any better than any other face cut.
The only reason any tree comes behind the stump is because something pushes it there. I am not sold on stump shot either

With conventional and open faced cuts the canopy or tip of the tree hits the ground first cause higher impact forces along the stem of the tree and potentially fracturing the stem and sending the butt end of the tree back at the faller. With a Humboldt the butt end of the tree contacts the ground first and the canopy of the tree falls second allowing the tree to travel forward with the momentum of the fall, landing softer, deceasing the likelihood of a fractured stem. Everything is situational but these are what I feel are the major differences between the two/three most common methods.

All three have there place ...including a couple others, but knowing how and when to execute each is an entirely different matter.

That being said. I agree it is cultural, east/west, and that most people go to what they are most familiar with rather than assessing the situation and coming up with the best solution to the problem.

 

[northmanlogging]

Are you perhaps mixing up your abbreviations a bit? I'd think that second quote would be "kbf" instead of "mbf".

Can you get a "mbf" on to just one truck?

smell fone typos lol
MBF=1000 board feet or 1k BF
On a straight log truck around here you can get 5-6mbf on a self loader 3.5-4.5 mbf (its weight based and the loaders are fecking heavy)
So, if you cut a load of 32's @ $750 per 1000 (mbf) and the load scaled at 4mbf (4000 board feet) it would be worth $3000

Now say you sent the same load but half of them have face cuts, that get them deducted, say 10 logs lose 25 bf per log and get paid at the reduced rate of $650, so 1750 BF with 2000 bf of the none deducted 32's = $2637.5
So those wrong sided face cuts just cost you $363.5,
And I'm being nice, the mills will deduct more then I did.

 

[pdqdl]

M=1k in Roman numerals. I get it.
That being said, I'm still calling you out on that, 'cause you didn't capitalize the "m".

I understand the math; I'm good at that stuff. I was presuming "mbf" would be million board feet, since you had also used 1k board feet.

I don't do Arbsite on the phone. It's either computer keyboard or deathly silence from my perspective.

 

[northmanlogging]

So is there a difference between state and federal lands? NYS is goofy btw.

some, but not much
The Fed stuff is pretty much all Forest Disservice, and they paint with a fairly broad brush.
DNR is still governed by BLM, same as forest service, but they have more leeway to conduct via local markets, So DNR gets more done without a bunch of Bureaucratic nonsense, (especially since the FS is based on the east coast... theres been a couple sales I got involved in that went to rot because they took too ******* long, or they forced their crews to cut to east coast specs... making most of the wood valueless)
Biggest difference I've seen is the requirements for fire wagons, DNR is reality based to some extent, while FS requires a bunch of stuff that is a little outdated, and ridiculous for a crew like me... or even most of the other crews I know... 3 shovels, 3 rakes, etc... bruh theres only 1 of us? But if yer smart, you set your fire trailer up to be good for both, then its simply not an issue.

 

[northmanlogging]

M=1k in Roman numerals. I get it.
That being said, I'm still calling you out on that, 'cause you didn't capitalize the "m".

I understand the math; I'm good at that stuff. I was presuming "mbf" would be million board feet, since you had also used 1k board feet.

I don't do Arbsite on the phone. It's either computer keyboard or deathly silence from my perspective.

M = manufactured, board feet MBF
madhatte explained it to me once... its one of them hold overs when folks were still scaling logs with a pencil and a dirty long thumb.

 

[northmanlogging]

Yeah, the smell fone makes me want to break things...
Once I'm home I can annoy the wife with all the angry backspacing... and still manage 40+ words a minute....

 

[weimedog]

With conventional and open faced cuts the canopy or tip of the tree hits the ground first cause higher impact forces along the stem of the tree and potentially fracturing the stem and sending the butt end of the tree back at the faller. With a Humboldt the butt end of the tree contacts the ground first and the canopy of the tree falls second allowing the tree to travel forward with the momentum of the fall, landing softer, deceasing the likelihood of a fractured stem. Everything is situational but these are what I feel are the major differences between the two/three most common methods.

All three have there place ...including a couple others, but knowing how and when to execute each is an entirely different matter.

That being said. I agree it is cultural, east/west, and that most people go to what they are most familiar with rather than assessing the situation and coming up with the best solution to the problem.

Like this one. ( The follow on to that one pic ) And you prolly deal with Hickory. That stuff will crack looking at it wrong.
View attachment butt.mp4

 

[pdqdl]

, you need to have $1million or better insurance, a 10k bond, and and active business license, as well as certify that you in now way are any form of exporter.

Heck, I'm ready to harvest me some trees then. I don't have to drive very far before I get me some really fine lumber.


I'm pretty sure KC Parks & Rec has no feller certification requirements, either. It's pretty swell of them to install the logging roads close to the trees, too.

 

[weimedog]

s

Now say you sent the same load but half of them have face cuts, that get them deducted, say 10 logs lose 25 bf per log and get paid at the reduced rate of $650, so 1750 BF with 2000 bf of the none deducted 32's = $2637.5
So those wrong sided face cuts just cost you $363.5,
And I'm being nice, the mills will deduct more then I did.

All that can be true assuming you know how the wood is, what the mill is looking for and a whole host of other....assumptions. All I can say is thank god your not either my scaler or where the check comes from. I do a similar analysis one vs. the other with the buyer to define how they are harvested. And I'm fortunate to have a really good communications & feedback with where the check comes from. That's really it. Online banter and speculation even with numbers is exactly that. Banter without the parameters with assumptions to build the premise. So I'll always listen nothing to lose but time in that. If it's a NEW analysis I'll look into it further as anyone would. This one is not new. Point being I'm not tied to any particular way and I would hope all would be free to make their decisions. To the OP Humboldt vs. Conventional? Just what pays the best based on the situation I have as I suspect all here would do. Safely.

 

[056kid]

Backbar into your 1nd cut if you can. Then yllou

Looks like it didn't hit anything, looks almost inline with the hinge from here. That would a tree to sell? Wonder what the angle in that face cut was. On mine, it the face cut closes before the hinge breaks. It breaks right then...and drops pretty much straight after the hinge no longer is intact. Or if I don't leave enough hinge on tree's like the red oak, they break easy anyway and once broke the tree drops straight like a stone.

Cool saw, what is that saw?

This one I cut too much out of the hinge and it broke . Didn't matter. But it was off around 10-15 degrees. Would not have been acceptable in a residential job threading some needle. Here? didn't matter
View attachment 1072823

The saw is an xl12 from Textron. The full wrap is why I bought it. It loses spark & won't start occasionally. Apparently the blue coil is a difficult part to find. Runs well when it does.

 

[weimedog]

Backbar into your 1nd cut if you can. Then yllou

The saw is an xl12 from Textron. The full wrap is why I bought it. It loses spark & won't start occasionally. Apparently the blue coil is a difficult part to find. Runs well when it does.

Does the coil from a s-xl work? I have a bunch of old homie stuff, could donate a coil if what I have works.

 

[Westboastfaller]

With conventional and open faced cuts the canopy or tip of the tree hits the ground first cause higher impact forces along the stem of the tree and potentially fracturing the stem and sending the butt end of the tree back at the faller. With a Humboldt the butt end of the tree contacts the ground first and the canopy of the tree falls second allowing the tree to travel forward with the momentum of the fall, landing softer, deceasing the likelihood of a fractured stem. Everything is situational but these are what I feel are the major differences between the two/three most common methods.

All three have there place ...including a couple others, but knowing how and when to execute each is an entirely different matter.

That being said. I agree it is cultural, east/west, and that most people go to what they are most familiar with rather than assessing the situation and coming up with the best solution to the problem.

He is right. An object will remain in forward motion unless it comes in contact with a solid object.
It is Newton's first law of motion. So you are saying the same thing. Hitting a slop or a slight 'spike' on flat ground have never done that in my experience. Up hill is different. The whipping action will send it down hill. A Swanson or modified Swanson is what you want do do. In BC Fallers rules then they say no more than 15 degrees to the up hill. Justified when overcoming a felling difficulty

The guy you quoted said:

"The only reason any tree comes behind the stump is because something pushes it there. I am not sold on stump shot either"

 

[Westboastfaller]

smell fone typos lol
MBF=1000 board feet or 1k BF
On a straight log truck around here you can get 5-6mbf on a self loader 3.5-4.5 mbf (its weight based and the loaders are ******* heavy)
So, if you cut a load of 32's @ $750 per 1000 (mbf) and the load scaled at 4mbf (4000 board feet) it would be worth $3000

Now say you sent the same load but half of them have face cuts, that get them deducted, say 10 logs lose 25 bf per log and get paid at the reduced rate of $650, so 1750 BF with 2000 bf of the none deducted 32's = $2637.5
So those wrong sided face cuts just cost you $363.5,
And I'm being nice, the mills will deduct more then I did.

True, you rip a log and it's. no longer worth half You quarter it and it not worth half of the half.
And then slabs are worth less per volume.

 

[Hatchville Homesteader]

He is right. An object will remain in forward motion unless it comes in contact with a solid object.
It is Newton's first law of motion. So you are saying the same thing. Hitting a slop or a slight 'spike' on flat ground have never done that in my experience. Up hill is different. The whipping action will send it down hill. A Swanson or modified Swanson is what you want do do. In BC Fallers rules then they say no more than 15 degrees to the up hill. Justified when overcoming a felling difficulty

The guy you quoted said:

"The only reason any tree comes behind the stump is because something pushes it there. I am not sold on stump shot either"

I would say that is true for tall conical conifers, but oaks, sweet gum, cottonwoods, black cherries, ext. with wonkie(crazy) branch structures that are as wide as the are tall can do funny and unexpected things sometimes when they hit the ground without any help from a solid object impeding there travel.

Different regions can have drastically different trees and different risks associated with them.

 

[Westboastfaller]

I would say that is true for tall conical conifers, but oaks, sweet gum, cottonwoods, black cherries, ext. with wonkie(crazy) branch structures that are as wide as the are tall can do funny and unexpected things sometimes when they hit the ground without any help from a solid object impeding there travel.

Different regions can have drastically different trees and different risks associated with them.

I fully agree with last statement. I suppose if a certain tree is light enough then it could possibly spring back of its wide crown. Maybe a big oak with massive crown.Normally it would just break. Fell thousand of black cotton that live west of the Rockies and thousands of the smaller species that live east of the Rockies plus in Europe. Not an issue neither with any cherry that I have seen. Can't speak for gum, have fell some oat in Europe, maybe in the right circumstances it is all possible.

 

[Hatchville Homesteader]

I fully agree with last statement. I suppose if a certain tree is light enough then it could possibly spring back of its wide crown. Maybe a big oak with massive crown.Normally it would just break. Fell thousand of black cotton that live west of the Rockies and thousands of the smaller species that live east of the Rockies plus in Europe. Not an issue neither with any cherry that I have seen. Can't speak for gum, have fell some oat in Europe, maybe in the right circumstances it is all possible.

I try to operate and put out information with the thought in the back of my head, “how could this one put me or someone else in a wheelchair” I was never trying to disagree - just wanted to say there are exceptions.

Have a good weekend! If I don’t get off this site I won’t get anything done and it’ll be Monday before I know it.

 

[056kid]

Does the coil from a s-xl work? I have a bunch of old homie stuff, could donate a coil if what I have works.

I'll have to check into that. I wanna say no, though.

 

[056kid]

Well, I said that I was a 1st gen cutter, but I neglected to take my great great French grandfather into account!

Great great grandad knew how to put them into lead from the looks of the butts. Good faces, good hinges, nice first runs.
If I remember correctly, the oxens' names were Coco & Remy. Forget the ancestor's name other than the surname, Poirier, or Peartree. I don't know where he is other than in or around Burgundy.
I love it.

 

[weimedog]

Talk about a LOW STUMP!

 

[weimedog]

Contrast One is "harvesting" the other a tree service. Which begs the question on the "service" Why? Does it matter if the hing is from the top or bottom as long as the tree is on the ground safe? But imagine being a land owner and seeing all your veneer with stumps like that