Humboldt vs. Conventional

[northmanlogging]

I can't believe some said that Humboldt is easier. Im a beginner and I was teached with conventional starting by angle and finishing by flat. I have tried several times cutting an Humboldt and I always endup not matching the cuts together whereas making conventional works perfectly the first time. I must do something wrong when i cut the Humboldt. Do you guys have any tricks for helping me ?

never start with the angle cut, ever, regardless of which flavor cut you prefer, only exception would be a birds mouth.
Its a lot easier to line up your angle/slope cut to a level cut (gun cut) and its a helluva lot more accurate to keep the saw level when "gunning" the cut hence "gun cut"

once you've established your gun cut, its just a a matter of eyeballing what angle you want your slope cut to be, then you cut only until the slope/angle cut is INLINE with the gun cut, if you fall short you can recut it, if you find your self too low on a humboldt, just stop and chunk out the face, if you are to high (a dutchman) then cut a little more out until you have the cut opened up. WHATEVER YOU DO DON'T CHASE YOUR GUN CUT, stop and look make sure you never go past the line of your gun cut on either side of the tree.

This little detail is what makes the Humboldt easy, its forgiving, you can be low, and as long as you stop and clean out the face, it will still go where you want
Starting with a slope cut your are adding multiple angles to deal with and account for in aiming the fall of the tree, any time you add more variables you add more room for errors, start with the flat level cut aim carefully, take your time on it, then base all your other cuts off that cut, once its established, its ultimately the one cut the effects the trees fall more then any other.
Another trick with Humboldts, is to set your felling dogs (they aint meant for bucking FYI) just a little low of the gun cut, point the bar at where you intend the tree to go, lower the tip until you get the desired slope angle, then use the dogs to rotate the saw through the cut, 90% of the time with a small amount of practice you'll be dead on

 

[Maître]

never start with the angle cut, ever, regardless of which flavor cut you prefer, only exception would be a birds mouth.
Its a lot easier to line up your angle/slope cut to a level cut (gun cut) and its a helluva lot more accurate to keep the saw level when "gunning" the cut hence "gun cut"

once you've established your gun cut, its just a a matter of eyeballing what angle you want your slope cut to be, then you cut only until the slope/angle cut is INLINE with the gun cut, if you fall short you can recut it, if you find your self too low on a humboldt, just stop and chunk out the face, if you are to high (a dutchman) then cut a little more out until you have the cut opened up. WHATEVER YOU DO DON'T CHASE YOUR GUN CUT, stop and look make sure you never go past the line of your gun cut on either side of the tree.

This little detail is what makes the Humboldt easy, its forgiving, you can be low, and as long as you stop and clean out the face, it will still go where you want
Starting with a slope cut your are adding multiple angles to deal with and account for in aiming the fall of the tree, any time you add more variables you add more room for errors, start with the flat level cut aim carefully, take your time on it, then base all your other cuts off that cut, once its established, its ultimately the one cut the effects the trees fall more then any other.
Another trick with Humboldts, is to set your felling dogs (they aint meant for bucking FYI) just a little low of the gun cut, point the bar at where you intend the tree to go, lower the tip until you get the desired slope angle, then use the dogs to rotate the saw through the cut, 90% of the time with a small amount of practice you'll be dead on

Hello thanks for your tip! Now Im starting to be really confused. I followed a security training last spring how to safely felt trees and they taught to start with angle cut and finish by the flat. I have tried your method and i found even for a conventional it is very very hard to match both cut (flat and angle) when Starting with the flat. I noticed that people from west alway start with the flat whereas people from east start with angle. Also I watched a lot of YouTube videos about felling trees and most of them starts with the flat. Why I'm i finding this method so hard? Is there something that I didn't understand ? When you start with the flat? How do you you set you bar angle so you can be sure that both cut will match each other well?

Thank you man and happy new year

 

[northmanlogging]

Hello thanks for your tip! Now Im starting to be really confused. I followed a security training last spring how to safely felt trees and they taught to start with angle cut and finish by the flat. I have tried your method and i found even for a conventional it is very very hard to match both cut (flat and angle) when Starting with the flat. I noticed that people from west alway start with the flat whereas people from east start with angle. Also I watched a lot of YouTube videos about felling trees and most of them starts with the flat. Why I'm i finding this method so hard? Is there something that I didn't understand ? When you start with the flat? How do you you set you bar angle so you can be sure that both cut will match each other well?

Thank you man and happy new year

a lot of it is just practice, muscle memory and all that.

Start your cuts all of them, with your body square to the tree and your shoulders in line with where you want the tree to land.
hold the saw level and make your "gunn" cut the flat one, Using the gunning lines on the saw to carefully aim, with your body squared to the tree, you should end with the bar straight out in front of you, and be just before centerline of the tree (this is a judgement call, but I rarely cut past C/L 40% is good)

check the off side to make sure you cut the whole stem and didn't come up short.

back on the start side, rotate the saw out of the cut, set the dog just below the gun cut, then tilt the nose of the bar down to get your desired angle, the felling dog should be holding most of the saws weight, its what they are meant for, then its simply a matter of keeping that dog anchored and rotating the saw up through the cut, stopping just before the bar is straight out and check the off side for alignment, finish the cut, if it lines up great, if it low, stop and hack out the chunks.

The 2 tricks here, are starting with your shoulders square and inline with the fall, and anchoring the felling dog for the angled cut, the rest is just learning how to hold the saw up and get it parked where you want it in the first place.
There is always time to stop and think before you start to cut, plan every cut before you make the first cut, its not a race, your cheating death and manipulating gravity with a multi ton living hammer that hates your guts and fights dirty.

 

[RandyMac]

Yes, always consider gravity.

 

[weimedog]

Always wondered why it has to be an either or, for my part they both are "tools" depending on what my log buyer wants. He wants a flat butt log. Humboldt, he wants more of the Stump, I kind of use a modified conventional. Rotate the 70-80 degree as much as I can get away with depending on the ground around the stump and where the root flare get too nasty. Have no problem starting on top at an angle for the face cut & meeting it with what ever I need or can get away with to get my 70 to 80 degrees. Some times a really steep angle and flat bottom cut. At times even two at 45 degree's. Less of an angle means easier cutting. But if I don't get the face open enough it's pulls all over the place as the tree closes the face and then jacks at the hinge as often the stringy things don't break that hinge until almost on the ground. Often on the bigger maples that 'Flare" out at the bottom, The face cut never really gets past the trim wood into the better part of the log, just need wedges to get things moving, and the log buyer likes those as well. Can't leave money all over the woods with tall stumps or foot long pulls up the tree so evolved into what I do now to get as much as possible and figure it out on the landing. Of course I have no soft wood and all that softwood here is done mechanically anyway. Leaves only the little guys doing the smaller jobs worrying about the nuance of the cuts. Since it's my wood, I work with my log buyers to get the most possible with what ever cut achieves that.

 

[Wow]

Hello thanks for your tip! Now Im starting to be really confused. I followed a security training last spring how to safely felt trees and they taught to start with angle cut and finish by the flat. I have tried your method and i found even for a conventional it is very very hard to match both cut (flat and angle) when Starting with the flat. I noticed that people from west alway start with the flat whereas people from east start with angle. Also I watched a lot of YouTube videos about felling trees and most of them starts with the flat. Why I'm i finding this method so hard? Is there something that I didn't understand ? When you start with the flat? How do you you set you bar angle so you can be sure that both cut will match each other well?

Thank you man and happy new year

Everyone has a different opinion. When I trained my three Grandsons I told them to start at the top of the angle cut. Keep the saw level. Watch the angle and when you get close to 1/3 rd but not quite there Stop cutting and check to see IF the angle was what they wanted. Pull the saw out of the cut check each side of the angle. If one side is to high start the saw put the bar into the cut and see if you have it level. Then pull the saw out of the cut. Then scratch with the saw a line from the angle to the front of the tree. Then go to the other side and mark that to the front. Start a light cut where the top angle ends towards the front of the tree. Do both sides. Now they can see what they have. Adjustment can be made at this time. NEVER get in a hurry. Speed comes with experience. When the knotch is cut we would use the tip of the bar to scratch another line from about 2 inches above the angle cut on each side. Slowly working those lines to meet in the middle of the back. Then they would make a back cut but shallow. Stop and see if the saw is lined correctly for a proper fall. Once the saw is lined correctly the boys checked the face cut to see if the angle needed adjusted. It's easy to fix the face now before they cut deep. The main thing is keeping the bar level and working slowly. I gave my grandsons all the time they needed. Once the back cut is deep enough I had them chase the bar with wooden wedges. One dead center and eventually two more. Now how that back cut angles makes a huge difference in the fall. I taught my boys to stop and look at hinge thickness. To pull the tree a tiny bit to one side in the fall they leave one side of the hinge a little thicker. With a top angle cut and a flat top stump a tree can bend just so far before the hinge snaps. It's possible for that tree to snap and jump the stump kicking back over the stump and kill or maim someone. What I like is a birds mouth. Once the top angle notch is cut it's easy to cut an angle on the stump. I had my boys get some experience before doing that because the angle on the stump has to match the bottom of the top angle. Otherwise you will still have a dutchman where the falling tree can snap the hinge early. Yet even if it does more than likely the tree will slide FORWARD off the stump. As a general rule that my stand system. You have more space for wedges and angle cuts on trees with some size. Tall skinny trees can be more dangerous. Often you don't have enough wood for a proper wedge. I started my boys on 14 to 18 inch trees. If it's tall gangely an not thick enough for a wedge I've set the fall and plunged making a place for a wedge. I could write a book on this but im stopping now. Hope this gives you some ideas. Remember, when you cut a tree it's at your own risk. Check the wind too.

 

[056kid]

Mi

never start with the angle cut, ever, regardless of which flavor cut you prefer, only exception would be a birds mouth.
Its a lot easier to line up your angle/slope cut to a level cut (gun cut) and its a helluva lot more accurate to keep the saw level when "gunning" the cut hence "gun cut"

once you've established your gun cut, its just a a matter of eyeballing what angle you want your slope cut to be, then you cut only until the slope/angle cut is INLINE with the gun cut, if you fall short you can recut it, if you find your self too low on a humboldt, just stop and chunk out the face, if you are to high (a dutchman) then cut a little more out until you have the cut opened up. WHATEVER YOU DO DON'T CHASE YOUR GUN CUT, stop and look make sure you never go past the line of your gun cut on either side of the tree.

This little detail is what makes the Humboldt easy, its forgiving, you can be low, and as long as you stop and clean out the face, it will still go where you want
Starting with a slope cut your are adding multiple angles to deal with and account for in aiming the fall of the tree, any time you add more variables you add more room for errors, start with the flat level cut aim carefully, take your time on it, then base all your other cuts off that cut, once its established, its ultimately the one cut the effects the trees fall more then any other.
Another trick with Humboldts, is to set your felling dogs (they aint meant for bucking FYI) just a little low of the gun cut, point the bar at where you intend the tree to go, lower the tip until you get the desired slope angle, then use the dogs to rotate the saw through the cut, 90% of the time with a small amount of practice you'll be dead on

Angle first is Canada approved. Some of those guys are accurate, more accurate than one might think! Howdy by the way.

 

[northmanlogging]

Mi

Angle first is Canada approved. Some of those guys are accurate, more accurate than one might think! Howdy by the way.

it can be accurate, but it takes a lot more practice...
Besides I think D Douglas Dent, you know the guy that wrote the book on timber falling, would disagree.
Anyhow you have to make a new account?

 

[056kid]

it can be accurate, but it takes a lot more practice...
Besides I think D Douglas Dent, you know the guy that wrote the book on timber falling, would disagree.
Anyhow you have to make a new account?

Dent is the authority. I thought so, but apparently I forgot that my old handle has a space in it. I might look into resurrecting the old one. I'm back because I've got a crapload of McCulloch related questions. I decided to get back into collecting before everything costs $1,000 or more!
I'm also in the early stages of trying to find a chunk of good timber land. It's a very intimidating topic as I've seen what good land costs during my time living on the ranches. I really wanna try to do the entire process from falling, to sawed and cured lumber, all on the property. Pretty big dreams I guess.
Anyways, I've noticed that a lot of the regulars are still here, that's awesome!

 

[president]

I tried to look that truck up, I can't find anything about it.

the mercury pickup is a Canadian model !

 

[madhatte]

Anyways, I've noticed that a lot of the regulars are still here, that's awesome!

Sup yo

 

[NORMZILLA44]

The old Orygun cut has it's place, it's great when you need to cut low on a tree with butt swell, swollen butt.... I think I should stop there.

Howdy Amigo been awhile shoot me a text 707-321-8062 was unable to message you

 

[NORMZILLA44]

I agree with JJ on cultural thing. Here it's safety and like mentioned, less waste on the butt log. Humbolt here is also a job requirement for timber fallers. Many in favor of conventional faces, argue on lower stumps. When I was younger I presented this argument to all my friends in tree work, and Timber fallers. And we are able to get stumps as low or lower. And a post Randymax replied to years ago, had me think and helped me in a few situations. Blockout and snipe, I've been able to get near ground level with some. And it helps on some big guys.

 

[056kid]

Just need some hill action and a guy can sidehill with a Humboldt and have the stump just a few inches above ground on the uphill side. There were a lot of guys back east who would cut a log flush with the ground, and I mean like in the freaking ground. If it was on a slope, they'd follow the contour. What the heck does the mill want with a 40⁰ angle butt log with everything short of the roots still attached?
Firewood is my guess as there was always a fluid looking pile of those ugly off plumb butt cuts that the loggers worked so hard on. They gain a foot with their technique & then the mill takes 2' to clean up the log. Maybe walnut might be a different story.

 

[rwoods]

Yes, always consider gravity.

Still kicking, I see. Hope you are doing well.

Ron

 

[056kid]

Do you guys have any tricks for helping me ?

When you go to make your 2nd face cut,
point the bar tip towards your lay. Then tilt the bar down to however tall you want your face, & do your best to rotate into the wood while staying on the same plane.

 

[president]

Sup yo

I just quit the OPE forum ,they claimed that they were hacked
and you just needed to become a gold member with monthly
fees to avoid the trouble accessing forums
By the way gold member status is not related to
Mike Meyers!

 

[Maintenance supervisor]

Mi

Angle first is Canada approved. Some of those guys are accurate, more accurate than one might think! Howdy by the way.

Approved? Encouraged? Or taught? I'm interested in what method they're teaching.
I've seen interpretations of what is actually taught that boggle the mind.

 

[northmanlogging]

Approved? Encouraged? Or taught? I'm interested in what method they're teaching.
I've seen interpretations of what is actually taught that boggle the mind.

in canada, they teach humboldt as a standard, but also the other basic methods as alternatives, each with its own purpose and need.
Note the standard/saginaw is not standard around here for a reason. It has its uses, but is less useful then humboldt or even bidsmouth or block face
Does it work yes, is it easy to learn, I guess, if only cause you can see your cuts better.
But the humboldt does 3 important things to a tree as its falling, fist being it naturally prevents back slip, second it leaves a taller stump when you're on steep ground its the stumps that keep logs from rolling down hills and killing people, and 3rd, allows the butt to slide to the dirt taking a great deal of the energy out of the falling tree and letting it "lay" rather then slam to the ground. All three of these things a standard face needs extra steps to achieve, such as a taller back cut, dutching the face to get it to "jump" off the stump, and still not being very good at not breaking timber, Though if you want the butt to stay off the ground, or intend to cause a back slip (very dangerous) then a standard works dandy.

 

[Maintenance supervisor]

in canada, they teach humboldt as a standard, but also the other basic methods as alternatives, each with its own purpose and need.
Note the standard/saginaw is not standard around here for a reason. It has its uses, but is less useful then humboldt or even bidsmouth or block face
Does it work yes, is it easy to learn, I guess, if only cause you can see your cuts better.
But the humboldt does 3 important things to a tree as its falling, fist being it naturally prevents back slip, second it leaves a taller stump when you're on steep ground its the stumps that keep logs from rolling down hills and killing people, and 3rd, allows the butt to slide to the dirt taking a great deal of the energy out of the falling tree and letting it "lay" rather then slam to the ground. All three of these things a standard face needs extra steps to achieve, such as a taller back cut, dutching the face to get it to "jump" off the stump, and still not being very good at not breaking timber, Though if you want the butt to stay off the ground, or intend to cause a back slip (very dangerous) then a standard works dandy.

Thank you Sir, I appreciate your responses and understand all of the cuts mentioned.
Last year I took the USDA training for a learning experience ( not necessary as part of my job) . Having professional timbers and insurance teachers really opened my eyes to fact that if you start "interpret " how a tree is supposed to be felled your family is not likely to get an insurance payout if its determined that you were not following guidelines.
In my job I'm not trying to save out timber so I don't care if the tree shatters in a hundred places, as long as a historic structure isn't smashed.