Hypothetical: Messed Up Hinge/Face Cut

[StihlRockin']

There are times when I didn't like how a certain cut turned out prior to dropping... or have a guy get ready to drop the tree and his face cut and back hinge kerf is starting out bad. I would start the whole thing over again; new face cut and starting back cut, etc.

In residential drops, I've made face cuts at a variety of heights from right at ground level to upwards as high as over 6ft.

1.) Is there a good recommended height a face cut's bottom lip should be off the ground?

2.) If the whole face cut/back cut setup is not going to work or not looking good and a guy wants to start over, does he start a whole new face cut below or above the existing cut? If so, why?

Thanks,

StihlRockin'

 

[Burvol]

There are times when I didn't like how a certain cut turned out prior to dropping... or have a guy get ready to drop the tree and his face cut and back hinge kerf is starting out bad. I would start the whole thing over again; new face cut and starting back cut, etc.

In residential drops, I've made face cuts at a variety of heights from right at ground level to upwards as high as over 6ft.

1.) Is there a good recommended height a face cut's bottom lip should be off the ground?

2.) If the whole face cut/back cut setup is not going to work or not looking good and a guy wants to start over, does he start a whole new face cut below or above the existing cut? If so, why?

Thanks,

StihlRockin'

If you have plenty of hinge left (a lot) and it looks to be stable, just go up two feet or so and start over. I have done this and it works as long as you are not taking a chance with no wood left. Don't do it unless you are sure you have plenty of wood holding your tree.

 

[hammerlogging]

Height of face cut: doesn't matter. in fact, the lower the better if you want or need to maximize your hinge length to increase strength against a side lean, because of the taper at the butt. But it doesn't matter if you're not cutting for logs and don't need the extra hinge length.

Its ok to recut your face cut all together, but consider just modifying the one you've already cut. But if you've done your back cut too, then you have some serious coonsideratons because the tree will split the grain between the two cuts and fall wherever it so desires. BUt with a face cut only, its ok to do a new face cut above or below, and back cut (you should really bore trees, but whatever) for your new face, and there won't be a problem. Go ahead and try it on purpose some time when there is not a house next to you.

 

[smokechase II]

Correct

"If you have plenty of hinge left (a lot) and it looks to be stable, just go up two feet or so and start over. I have done this and it works as long as you are not taking a chance with no wood left. Don't do it unless you are sure you have plenty of wood holding your tree."

If you don't have enough wood left on the first cuts, several things could happen. The two most common would probably be:
1) The tree comes over in the middle of the second attempt, it dictates the future.
2) When the tree does go over a jack knife thing occurs. The two faces both are active.

Be thinking equipment or multiple escape routes etc.

***************************

"Height of face cut: doesn't matter. In fact, the lower the better if you want or need to maximize your hinge length to increase strength against a side lean, because of the taper at the butt. But it doesn't matter if you're not cutting for logs and don't need the extra hinge length."

I think there is also an additional strength factor with the wood down lower, not just the greater amount of wood to work with because of butt swell. The wood closest to the ground is denser and stronger (I believe) because it has been brought up that way. Had to do the right thing.
{Plus root pull, which you can actually use to pull a tree further, but more commonly it needs to be avoided.}

*****************************

If you are dropping a tree with a cat face or a root rot down low, it is not uncommon to bring your face cuts up to get to solid wood.
Same concept as you are asking about, really.
Step into this world cautiously.

All the best.

 

[randyg]

Done right the first time

If face and back cuts are completed already, neither starting higher or lower are recommended. Modify what you've got a little if ample holding wood is available, but next step would be to call on equipment. Something to push in the right direction or rope in with block and tackle or equipment to pull in right direction, etc. Use throw line to pull this rope into the tree, DO NOT climb if face and back cuts are done. OK How to poss. avoid this dis-satisfying felling cut that you have grown accostomed to.

Make the face cut. Then study it carefully. If direction is off, you can carefully modify that face cut to get direction right. If it is to far off, go up or down a foot or more and start over.Then make sure top and bottom cuts of that face join perfectly, leaving no dutchman. If dia. of tree is at least 3 times the height of the bar, you can bore through the center of the face cut and push the bar straight out the other side of the tree. Hard to mess up the back cut then. If dia. is larger than bar length, I would still bore the center. Then scribe a line in the bark from hinge to hinge all the way around the tree. This serves as a guide line for that back cut. If your bar length is greater than the diameter of the tree the temptation is to make that back cut in one sweep, don't do it. You will probably end up with to much or to little hinge wood on the side opposite where you are standing. Ok to cut it part way but then pull the saw back so tip of bar is in center and cut that side of hinge. Let chain stop, pull bar out and walk around to other side and then dress that side of the hinge. Cutting the back cut using these CHEATS will help you get it right the first time. If you are not or have not performed a bore cut/plunge cut before, do not attempt this cut. Have someone IN THE KNOW show you and guide you through that first time. Even with a small saw, attempting that cut can eat your lunch.

Greatest mis-conception I see is someone starting the back cut with one thought in mind, 'I'm gonna keep cutting till that tree starts to tip' and they end up cutting to much hinge wood. How much hinge wood do you need? Depends on the type of tree, condition of the wood, direction of and speed of wind, amount of side lean, etc. Again, If you don't know, humbly ask someone IN THE KNOW. Most will be tickled to share their knowledge, and hopefully steer you in the right direction.

TRY NOTHING THAT I HAVE DISCUSSED HERE WITHOUT OK ing IT FIRST WITH SOMEONE ELSE.

randy

 

[Jimmychips]

practice, practice, practice

I'm a firm believer in practicing things in non-critical situations, before you have to rely on them when the garage, the wires and the neighbor's pool are all in play.

I mention this, because I have come to be a big fan of the bore cut. I didn't start using the bore cut until (1) It was demonstrated to me at a training class, and (2) I tried it a few times on spars. Once you are comfortable, you will use the bore cut regularly (especially IN the tree).

The rest of my 2 cents: Hinge length: 80% to 90% of the tree's diameter, hinge width 10% to 15% of tree's diameter. (less width on dead wood). Because I don't cut for logs, and am not worried about waste, I always use an open face notch. (at least 70 degrees).

 

[arbor pro]

wedges

I haven't heard anyone weigh in on the use of wedges yet. Even in the cases of seemingly 'foolproof' hinge cuts, I always keep a bag of various size wedges and a 5# sledge hammer closeby just in case I need to give the tree a little extra persuasion.

While a good face and back cut are very important, in the case that you get your cuts off a little bit, wedges can help to give the tree the tree a 'push' in the right direction - even if it's just a little wedge and a very big tree.

As stated previously, practice using them in non-critical situations if you've never done so.

Oh yeh - make sure those wedges are plastic felling wedges and not steel splitting wedges. Each has its own use and steel wedges are not for felling. The shape is wrong and the first nick with your saw chain against steel and it's dull. Nick a plastic wedge and no big deal...

 

[Nailsbeats]

wedges

I have used steel wedges for years with no problems. They give you more lift with one wedge and you can beat the crap out of them to take a tree in directions you never would have thought it would go, as long as you have a strong hinge of course. You just have to be more careful around them with the saw. Don't get me wrong, I use plastics too, but in the tough stuff I will take the steel.

 

[l2edneck]

i will raise my notch depending on how much length i have to drop it.

normally i will cut about waist high because that is where im most comfortable holding the saw.

ALWAYS take time to cut you notch properly.

 

[GASoline71]

As far as wedges are concerned... anybody fallin' trees with out wedges with them... has no bizzniss fallin' trees.

No wedges on hand is a rookie mistake...

Gary

 

[beastmaster]

If this is happening a lot, you should ask your self why? May be you need to swallow some pride and asked some one to show you.( I guess you have) I try to train our guys to use the line on the saw(it on the case of ever saw made)as a sight. There's other variables to be sure, but sighting in your cut is the start. Then if you hit your mark on the downward cut of the face cut,and your back cut is right it will (should) go in that direction. When a climber is up in a tree I'll often direct his cut from the ground as to direction. A simple mistake can be costly or fatal. Some times if the cut starts out bad for whatever reason its best to just start a new one. I've seen guys try to correct a cut and pretty soon there is nothing left and the cut is still wrong, now your screwed. Its easy to adjust a cut some but I would'nt do major overhauls on one, its asking for trouble.Better to just start over, better yet learn to do it right. Just my two cents worth. Remember use that line on the case of the saw as a sight.

 

[techdave]

establish your face from the corners if need be

Hi SR

If face accuracy is frequently bad, consider startign the second cut of the face from the corners of the face.

For me, i use the humbie a lot, and in most cases start my face withe the bottom cut. for most guys the horizontal top cut is better.

Ease it in unit you are at teh right depth and the aiming line on the case points to the target.

The start the face at each corner first, and clean up if need be to get and even face that dont cross or dutchman

 

[Mitchell]

refalling

There are times when I didn't like how a certain cut turned out prior to dropping... or have a guy get ready to drop the tree and his face cut and back hinge kerf is starting out bad. I would start the whole thing over again; new face cut and starting back cut, etc.

In residential drops, I've made face cuts at a variety of heights from right at ground level to upwards as high as over 6ft.

1.) Is there a good recommended height a face cut's bottom lip should be off the ground?

2.) If the whole face cut/back cut setup is not going to work or not looking good and a guy wants to start over, does he start a whole new face cut below or above the existing cut? If so, why?

Thanks,

StihlRockin'

The standard minimum distance for starting a new cut is 1.5 times the diameter. Normally fallers will go up to re do cuts as they are cutting low to Begin with. I have not considered cutting below the original cut as I usually cut low; i'll have to think about that. Low cuts will give you extra leverage to manhandle a smaller tree and push it over; specifically the size that do not have room for a bar and a wedge. Its easier then placing your back cut and wedge then your face cut last.

Depending on the species you can pull the tree back with uneven holding wood [more on the side you want to pull to] and or sticking a wedge in the closing pie opposite the side you want it to go [not reliable].

Most everyone [with less experience] who misses dropping a pie out clean did so because they sweep to far past the first horizontal cut of the face; they then have to chase it around the far side and change the falling direction. More often then not most people think the saw is level horizontally and it is not; it will be tip down, which on a humbolt, it will swing past the first cut every time. So keep your saw level [use a level to check, every single faller I taught was tip down when they thought they were level]. When your learning, Always aim for a depth of 25% when putting your face in; if you miss you have room to clean it out. If you go 30 to 40% and miss, your screwed if the tree has a back lean or structural problems.

If you miss bad bore the pie out by plunging the saw through vertically at the point the cuts should have met up. Conversely you can often beat the pie out with a axe and then clean it up. On big timber it is common to have to do this as lining cuts up is hard to do. When boring practice first and you will avoid kick outs if you twist the saw blade laterally as you push it in.

 

[randyg]

You are doing stricktly city trees I presume, and not worried about a couple inches log length right? Use a conventional making the upper cut FIRST. Then as you make the lower cut look inside the upper cut and you can eyeball the bar and STOP when it meets the upper. Then you drop the bar back in the upper cut to nibble the rest of the way down to that perfectly placed lower cut and VOILA, a perfect notch every time.

 

[Burvol]

As far as wedges are concerned... anybody fallin' trees with out wedges with them... has no bizzniss fallin' trees.

No wedges on hand is a rookie mistake...

Gary

Actually...it can also been the sign of a guy that can swing trees with the dutchman like a sum #####, or set dominos, or hang-to-push, etc. I have cut with guys that will pull out a wedge two times in a whole day, if that, and they are spot on too. I've been chewed on for excessive wedging when I first started falling. But I do wedge almost everything when I get to the road, or around guy lines (if the loggers are on me). Wedging takes time and is a complete waste of it, if you can get around it. Sometimes you can't though. Wedges are also a staple for bucking on really steep ground. At times you just might need one. OK, Yah! for wedges.

 

[Mitchell]

true

Actually...it can also been the sign of a guy that can swing trees with the dutchman like a sum #####, or set dominos, or hang-to-push, etc. I have cut with guys that will pull out a wedge two times in a whole day, if that, and they are spot on too. I've been chewed on for excessive wedging when I first started falling. But I do wedge almost everything when I get to the road, or around guy lines (if the loggers are on me). Wedging takes time and is a complete waste of it, if you can get around it. Sometimes you can't though. Wedges are also a staple for bucking on really steep ground. At times you just might need one. OK, Yah! for wedges.

In the bush if your wedging your having a bad day. At times I could go for days and never use them once; pushing, dominoing or have a helper pusher. I knew old timers that claimed they would set up half a block and tip it over at the end of the day! I don't know if it was true but if you met these guys you would not be surprised if it was. As GASoline71 says you better have wedges on you; which I think was his point not that you should set a wedge every time. time saved by not wedging is all lost if you have to hump it back to the truck for another saw to cut your self out.

Times change however, and there is a lot less acceptance of falling for expediency sake. I would 't be surprised if a wedge set in most trees is going to be a requirement down the road.

Around tartgets I now put a wedge in every time unless the lean is pronounced.

 

[techdave]

Right on Burvol

Wedges when bucking on steep ground!!!!! Right on brother!!

Bucking is a more frequently used skill, and no doubt Trees with big end or big side bind is WAYYY nastier than most regular felling! LOL

 

[Burvol]

Wedges when bucking on steep ground!!!!! Right on brother!!

Bucking is a more frequently used skill, and no doubt Trees with big end or big side bind is WAYYY nastier than most regular felling! LOL

Oh yes, and a good way to hurt and ruin your equipment at times. Big sticks of Doug Fir wound in around logs and stuff, nasty.