If the rope is too short...

[John Paul Sanborn]

I don't have a problem with people woking on "short" ropes, as long as they work extra safe while doing it, no short cuts or high risk actions that could cause harm. I don't mean obviouse things like occasional onehanded chainsawing. Everyday things like cutting w/o lanyard, working with big wood that migh strain a joint and things like that.

 

[arboromega]

come on. like wct said when the biner joins two ropes it travel out of sight. of course it is safe on my saddle nick, where i can see it, touch it, and hear it. i cant do that if it travels too far away from me. really, ask yourself - am i safer with this carabiner joining my ropes together, or should i spend 130$ for a 150' piece of good rope and climb without the question?
if it is money then you spend more for the two 120's and the carabiner than you do for 1 150'
really, what is the rule for rigging ...keep it safe and simple. dont use gear you dont need. same for climbing. this is your life we are talking about.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Arbos [should] use locking biners. And, in this case, there's only one biner added to the system. Let's look at other rope access situations.

How many of you naysayers are familiar with trad and bigwall rock climbing? Mixed climbing? How about ice climbing? All of those practices use ropes and biners, non-locking almost exclusively, in ways that would make arbos shudder. Does gear fail? Yup, but not very often.

This solution sure seems viable and very safe with normal considerations. There are a lot more boogie men out there waiting to get us than the one that will jimmy open a locked, and weighted, biner.

Tom

 

[NickfromWI]

I trad climb! I never thought twice about clipping in my climbing line to a non-locking wire gate 'biner that's hanging off a cam or some other piece of pro....that is until I started tree climbing.

Just to be funny, I climbed a route in NH once using all locking 'biners. It was silly but I'm sure many tree climbers would've watched that and thought that's the way you're supposed to do it!

love
nick

 

[arboromega]

sorry, just cant get behind this idea. rock climbing and tree climbing are not the same. just like rec. diving and work diving have similarities they have inherently different objectives; rock and tree climbing have different objectives. the equipment is placed into a different performance catagory and our soul objective from ourselves and our equipment remains safety.
is ascent into a canopy with two ropes joined together by a biner a viable climbing technique? perhaps. but is it the safest option? no.

 

[xander9727]

How many of you naysayers are familiar with trad and bigwall rock climbing? Mixed climbing? How about ice climbing? All of those practices use ropes and biners, non-locking almost exclusively, in ways that would make arbos shudder. Does gear fail? Yup, but not very often.

Tom

If it can fail you can die or worse wind up driving a chair with a blow tube.

I feel we need to minimize risk as much as reasonably possible. I know you don't want to spend a couple hundred bucks for a rope you use twice a year but I bet Christopher Reeves would have given $200 not to have been paralyzed. For $200 I wouldn't want to risk placing the burden on my family. In rock and ice climbing you have several pieces of pro gear that keep you from falling to your death. In tree climbing we usually have one tie in point when moving. When I rock climb I still use my arbo biners on my climbing harness. I use non locking biners for my pro gear attachments. I don't correlate on with the other, I believe there is a dichotomy that exist between the two. One is climbing, the other is climbing, working, running power equipment, etc. Most of my rock climbing has been for enjoyment. Most of my tree climbing has been for work.

 

[Gord]

If it can fail you can die or worse wind up driving a chair with a blow tube.

everything we do has risk involved. this business is inherently a hazardous one, so our job is to keep risk at acceptable levels. for a climber practiced and learned in safe rope techniques the tree itself will more often be the weak link in the system than a climbing component. my two cents.

 

[Stumper]

A $200 rope wouldn't have done Christopher Reeves any good. It is considered very bad form to tie oneself to the horse.
If a person is habitually climbing high enough to need a longer rope to descend without interruption then ,sure , buy one. I have no idea why everyone is getting so PC about Nathan's practical gear usage. Good grief, I am probably one of the very poorest climbers on this site and I have climbed above my " one drop" escape level upon occassion. It didn't terrify me any more than climbing half that high does. I simple made a mental note that I would have to recrotch on a bail out. Is that a safety risk? Well it is marginally less safe to descend wounded. Sheesh! Do you climb with a likelihood of seriously injuring yourself? I am aware of the possibility and plan fro an escape but I'm not worried about it. I just need to trust my gear and the tree. I don't worry about loaded 'biners miraculously opening and releasing me.

 

[NickfromWI]

I will not hesitate to climb a 70'+ tree with a 120' rope. I agree with Stumper here.

You all who disagree with this are right. It is safER to climb with one-drop capability. But you are going beyond necessity.

Keep two hands on the chainsaw, guys!

love
nick

 

[wct4life]

How many of you naysayers are familiar with trad and bigwall rock climbing? Mixed climbing? How about ice climbing? All of those practices use ropes and biners, non-locking almost exclusively, in ways that would make arbos shudder. Does gear fail? Yup, but not very often.

Tom, I don't want to beat a dead horse, but, this post bothers me. You made a post in the past about "wearing a velvet glove when it comes to teaching new techniquies but, an Ironfist when it comes to safety." Or something like that.

The main difference that I can see is that the other practices in which you posted are hobbie situations. And you say "Gear still fails" Now if you were to incorrporate that into an everyday use, then, gear would fail more often.

My main concern is for the newbie reading this. Not yet able to realize what is going on within this industry. For him/her to read your post, it might sound like you don't need a tri-act biner.


Note: I'm not trying to be an a$$. Also, I paraphrased some of your comments. They might be taken outta context and, if so, I apologize.

 

[SteveBullman]

with regards to what tom said about gear still failing.....you have to bear in mind in rock climbing you're not (or shouldnt be) relying on one piece of gear, but several, in fact probably as much gear as you happen to have on your belt you'll be sticking in the wall as you go, so if one piece does fail you're just going to drop as far as the next piece. then with the dynamic rope you'd be using you wouldn't feel the fall much anyhow. but thats a whole nother thread. but i think thats what tom had in mind when he said that, right tom?

 

[DDM]

Do you ever just tie them together?

Nawww that would just be a good excuse to go buy a longer new rope......

 

[Nathan Wreyford]

but is it the safest option? no.

The safest option would be a lift because the tree is a total unknown.
There could be hidden defects. Other than the tree, I knew the strength of EVERY component of my system. The same boogie men that make biners suddenly fail could also make ropes suddenly fail. Correct?

I look at it as a risk factor. Chances of spontaneous rope failure vs spontaneous biner failer.

Risk factors are good. Say you have a 1 in 10000 chance of hitting your left leg with a chainsaw. I think hmmmm, I will run a chainsaw 10000 times so that means I have a 100% chance of hitting my leg. Use chainsaw protection and now my left leg is safe.

Spontaneous biner failure (on a new DDM Wales) is let's say 1 in 1,000,000 or 1 in a 100,000. I think done just twice, I can take those odds. Done 100,000 times it is a different story.

Buy a new rope and use it just twice....whatever. Combine that with the fact I climb trees in more places than just Virginia or Ohio. My ropes are likely to see a few different states and a few different countries.

Rock climbing vs tree climbing. In USA, arbo stuff seems to have evolved from lumberjacks with heavy steel spurs and a buckstrap. In Euroland, it seems to have evolved from Alpine climbing. The 2 have mixed and oh, what a wonderful world of climbing possibilities we have. The biggest difference in risk between the 2 is loosing your life in recreation is acceptable and loosing it in occupation is not .

 

[geofore]

Petzl?

Went to their site www.petzl.com and clicked on work solutions then clicked on technique but didn't find the the tie the ropes together with a caribiner. Nice rigging pictures but Glens is going to think it takes forever for the pictures to load. I can't say that I haven't tied ropes together useing a caribiner but I usually have long ropes as I buy ropes by the 600'-1200' coil. I mention Petzl for the new guys to take a look at the rigging setups they picture.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

I didn't take the time to re-read what I said about using biners. I'll never advise against using auto-locks or minimally a pair of opposite and opposing non-lockers. It's the responsibility of a new climber to read and learn from more sources than a discussion forum.

In rock climbing there are many more pieces of gear used. In certain situations the failure of one clip could lead to death.

IN this discussion, I can't see why I would ever use a biner to clip two splices. I'd use a double fisherman's. But...having followed Nate's writing for several years I have confidence in his descisions.

If someone were concerned about the biner laying on a limb and getting cross loaded it would be a simple solution to use some flagging tape to give the biner more visibility. The biner could be located away from a limb.

Tom

 

[xander9727]

I think a lot of what you do in tree work is decided by what you are comfortable with. Do I think Nate is a hack or a cowboy (pun intended Mr. Texan......wait, cowboys wear chaps ) because he hooks two ropes together with a 5000# biner? No way. Do I think it is a good everyday work practice, a trick a new climber should use or the expert path? No. What is most important is that Nate is aware of the potential risk and how to recognize and prevent these pitfalls. I believe that Nate's experience in arboriculture gives him the ability to self assess the difficulty and relative safety of gear usage aloft.

This is not an area that I would give a new climber latitude in.