Insulted.

[treeman82]

Hello everyone, as I am sure most of you know I am a college student who also has a lawn / tree care / landscaping business. With each passing year I try to become more professional. 2 years ago I became incorporated and insured. 1 year ago I got my pesticide liscence. This year I got a shop to keep my stuff at, so my operation is not at my home. I am currently working on a 2 year turf degree, and after that am going to get a degree in arboriculture if fiesable. I am not asking for a medal for these things, I do wish for some respect though. When on my way home from dinner tonight with some friends it was mentioned about the friend of one friend... who is 20 or so now and just started a "tile business" and made 10K in his first month. Then it was stated that the guy really doesn't have a business. Another girl who was there, her boyfriend has a "business" he cuts 60 lawns and does some landscaping too. He is uninsured and unincorporated as well. These two people were referred to with much more respect because they do more business than I do, and have nicer things, yet they are nowhere near legal.
I asked a question a few weeks ago on the new LS about what do you have to offer your client? People responded with answers such as; "I want to work," "I do good work," "I am reliable," etc. Several of these people actually stated that they will be better off than I am because they have gone through the school of hard knocks instead of an actual school of informative learning. One guy even claimed to be able to learn more than I can in college in 2 weeks at some seminar. I found few people, if anyone who had a degree in what we do.
I find these things here to not only be disrespectful to ourselves as fellow businessmen, but also to be disrespectful to our industry as a whole. I feel that it is our duty as professionals to be liscensed, properly educated, properly insured, and to have appropriate legal setups.

I hate to be so long winded and almost preacher like here. I just am getting more and more aggrivated by the day with the attitude of "it doesn't take much to cut a tree, or to cut grass. Any idiot can do it, and it's good money."

Does anyone else feel the way that I do?

 

[underwor]

Treeman,

I see the situation from the teacher end of things. Some of the signs are encouraging. The online classes I am offering are being taken by and large by people who have come up through the school of hard knocks, been relatively successful, but now realize that to go on to the levels of PHC and consulting that they need to know the scientific stuff and be able to logically explain it to a clientele who themselves are more highly educated. These are the greatest students, since they can draw from experience and know why they are studying. I still take a class occasionally. A MS degree does not mean that I know everything yet. It merely has helped point out how much I don't know yet. The one thing you will constantly learn is how much you don't know, if you are honest with yourself. We learn from books, seminars, visits with peers and listening to the young and untrained who do not yet have the biases of experience and knowledge.
All the knowledge in the world is worthless if you can not clearly convey it to another. I had a student a few years back, who made more money than I do teaching in his first year out of high school. He wanted to go to school, but nature was not kind to him in that department. I have always said that if I was in the market for a climber to work for me he was the first one I would call. One of the best I've seen. He knew the techniques and work, but he was not going to be in management. I feel he is probably doing okay these days, but I know he will never be a boss since the simplest paperwork is out of the question.
We all have our limitations. I am a good climber, I hope a good teacher and I communicate with the public fairly well, but I am not a manager. I ran my own business for 12 years, but am much happier working for someone else. It is my limitation. We all bring something into the business. Those who succeed in the end are those who bring in the most and are able to use it efficiently.
There is a principle that states that "a person will advance to one level beyond their abilities". I did this with management of a business. The smart ones are those that realize when this level is reached and back off.
Keep plugging away at your schooling and your business. You will benefit from both. Most people will change careers at least 4 times in their life. If you are lucky, you got it right the first time.

Bob Underwood

 

[ArborView]

treeman82-I know exactly what you're talking about. When people ask me what I do for a living, I tell them I'm an arborist. Their reply: "what's that??" When I tell them, they usually say "Oh, so you just cut trees." Oh, you're a doctor, so you just cut people, right? Oh, you're a carpenter, so you just pound nails all day, right?
I finally decided what I wanted to do in life after working for 8 years after high school. So I went to college and got my associates degree in arboriculture and a bachelor's in urban forestry. Then I got certified by Mass. Arborists and the ISA. I have my pesticide applicator's license, I'm fully insured, etc. I'm by no means bragging either, but this took a lot of hard work since I had to raise 2 kids and a support a family at the same time. I am very proud of what I do and I take a lot of pride in it. But it makes me mad to be put down as just a treeworker sometimes.
While we're on the subject, the other thing that makes me mad is to be referred to as a "pickup and chainsaw guy." I only work on my own part time but I have all the credentials and insurance, which most bigger operations in this area don't have. Just because I don't have a bucket truck, chipper, and stump grinder, I'm not considered a professional. Well, you have to start somewhere right??? Right now anways, the kind and amount of work I do doesn't justify having this type of equipment. I'd be losing money if I did. If I have a lot of brush to deal with, I'll just line all the work up, rent a chipper for a couple of days and do it that way.
As far as the "any idiot can do it theory", I've heard it plenty of times. Go ahead and try, it's not as easy it looks.

 

[oakdancer]

To all you arborists out there keep up the good work, I recently was asked by an insurance company for an arborists opinion on the condition of a large beech tree overhanging a newly renovated property (apparently my opinion was worthless due to me not being a certified arborist) so I called a fairly local arborist who informed me of how qualified he was and how important he was to the tree industry and just about every other industry....after an hour or so of listening to this crap he informed me of his hourly charges of £70.00 per hour and fuel expenses to and from the site, and wait for it ..... £275 for a written report. Now correct me if i'm wrong but this seemed a bit steep and the insurance company decided after recieving the arborists estimate to go with my report(wow i must be a very important person now) anyway curiosity got the better of me and i went to meet this guy sorry arborist, anyway he turns out to be about 25 years old with very little climbing experience weighs around 17 stones and drives around in an old land rover, so someone please tell me how does a guy like this have the audacity to quote these rediculous prices when he couldnt actually get to the first limb of a tree never mind inspect it(beats me) Now dont give me a hard time over this its just one particular incident and i truly believe in professionalism in the tree care business and have every respect for arborists, just not this one, any of you other guys out there experienced this.....Graham

 

[treeclimber165]

Oakdancer

There is quite a bit of arrogance present in the minds of many young climbers. I guess this is due to the amount of natural ability required to climb, and the amount of money an otherwise unskilled person can make if he can climb well. This state of mind usually takes about 10 years to lose, and by that time most have quit climbing.
This is only my opinion, of course. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. :angel:
Try finding someone a little older, a little wiser, and not so full of himself.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Arborists is a credential that shows one has a minimum of knowledge that the ISA "feels" one needs.

One of the hardest things doing what I am trying, freelance or subconatract work, is convincing people that I am worth it. That I am not one of theose drunken dopers that have problems getting out of bed on a consistant basis.

I'll never have a degree, I'm one of those people that learns easily but hates school, notebooks, homework, projects...The thing is I am a skilled proffesional who loves what he does.

When it comes down to it, it does not matter what anyone else but yourself thinks. Money is important, but it aint everythin.

In a few years when you have your card reading

ISA Cert Arobrits, AS, BS
Member
NY Arborist Assoc
International Arborist Assoc
ALSCA
.
.
.

When you are able to pick an choose your clientel
When you tell people that your proffesion supports your family well and your hunting habit

You will wonder why you used to get upset when people say "Oh, you trim trees!"




It never goes away.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Attiude
State of mind
Learning curve
I know I don't know
School of hard knocks

Buzz words

My arbo career started off when I was 12, dragging brush. My age might be different thatn others but that is how most people start in this profession. Little bit of college and then got an associates degree in landscaping. then I enrolled in the school of hard knocks. After running my business for a few years I started to read trade magazines and realized that I was part of the trade that people look down their noses at, pick a name, hack, jackleg, etc. I was insulted but I did something about that. I started to attend tradeshows and joined the state ISA chapter. Later, the ISA and NAA. By driving myself to learn I have become a much better arbo. Pride comes along with that. I used to say that I pruned/trimmed trees for a living. Now I am an arborist. In fact, I'm on jury duty right now and got called to be in a pool for a jury. When I was asked what I did for a living I could have answered the same but I decided to answer "arboriculture educator" and let the lawyers figure out what I did. This was probably the first time that they ever heard arbor-anything in the courtroom.

There are statistics that show that the people with more education earn more money. That isn't always because of the education. The more important reason is that people who can show that they are capable of starting and finishing projects start and finish more projects. That means more success which generally means more money. Of course, there are exceptions to this theme. But they are really irrelevant.

Happy Holidays to everyone!

Tom

 

[treeman82]

Hey guys. Before I head out to my shop at 9:30 at night to start working I checked the thread and think that I should be a bit more specific here. I was not insulted for what I chose to do with my life. That does not insult me in the least bit. I was insulted because I am insured and incorporated, as well as getting more certifications by the year. And yet people who are my age, who don't have even one of those qualifications are being treated with more respect than I am. Simply because they make more money than I do. I wonder why....? Maybe it's because they don't have to pay for insurance, or taxes, or rent at a shop, or anything else. As well as the fact that they are able to do this full time, because they are not in any form of schools or seminars becoming more educated. I am in school now, and I do attend a few seminars a year, so I can't dedicate as much time as they can.

 

[UrbanEarth]

Treeman82,
Anyone can go out and make gobs of cash. By doing crappy work, overcharging, using inferior materials and basically doing everything illegally. Do you really care what people that do that kind of work think of you? I would be insulted if someone compared me to someone like that. If you are a professional compare yourself to other professionals. Give these 'friends' three years, and see if they are still doing the same thing. That to me is one mark of a professional, that they can continue to do business for many years.

Wishing everyone a Merry Christmas and many years of work!

Alan

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

What I was trying to say is that there will always be a certain amount of this in your/our live(s).

Don't worry, be happy. Youll make good money, have satisfiyed clients, doing what you like to do.

We all could make more dough by putting up retaining walls, but we don't want to.

I am a good arborist who has the respect of my peers. If someone says "oh, your a tree trimmer!" I then decide if it is worth the effort to educate them. Or as Zilmer says "infect" them.

If people are impressed with money, that is what they look at, you are searching for proffesionalism. So you ar defering some of the monitary gains, or maybe even forgoing them.

Or more simply, Dont sweat it!

 

[sgreanbeans]

AMEN JOHN PAUL! here we deal with all the time. The way I approach my friends and people I meet in the general public when im not working, is if they knew how fun the job is then they would want to get into it aswell. reducing my ability to have fun!So I just ignore the ones who are just trying to get under my skin!But the ones who tell me they have " a ton of tree work that needs to be done, would you like to take a look. I wont hire just anyone so i havnt even opened the phonebook"They get my undivided attn!

 

[treeman82]

JP- I was thinkin the other night. By the time I am 30 I will most likely have 4 certifications, and 5 memberships.
ISA Certified Arborist
NYS Pesticide Applicator
Snow Management Technician
Certified Landscape Technician

Member:
NYSTLA
ISA
NAA
SIMA and
NY Green Grass Association

That many groups and certifications requires a pretty big business card