Insurance Scam!!

[lxt]

Here in wonderful tax the snot out of ya PA an insurance claim can be made up to two years after completion of work by a contractor.

My buddies finding this out the right now as I type this, apparently Home owner needs some new gutters, downspouts & gutter gaurds!! & she says he removed a limb that hit the gutter thus weakening the whole thing, she wants it replaced, he did the job 6-07 & shes just now filed the claim.

I had similar happen to me, took down 2 big sycamores, did all the cleanup & subbed the stump work out to a friend, the Homeowner wanted grinding debris left said he would clean it up, during cleanup a few spots were missed on the one stump the other stump was good.

so my friend returns to regrind the missed spots as I am personlly there to help, mind you this guy already paid in full, referred us to neighbors & gave me a couple dozen gloves from the mill he worked in.....He was happy, right?

Wrong......he dug around the stump while removing the debris thus exposing what was ground 8-10" below ground level in an attempt to level this side of the yard, due to me refusing to come back for free he calls my Insurance carrier & says I broke his sidewalk..........LOL

The agent told me right to my face that these cracks were old & it couldnt be proven if I did or didnt to this, but to fight this claim will cost more than what would be spent on the homeowners sidewalk which I didnt crack!!! so they will pay 1/3 the claim cause me, the stump guy & homeowner all did work their!! home owner gets $300.00 never fixed the sidewalk & has a nice level yard........which is all he wanted but didnt want to pay me to do it so it wasnt in the bid.....but he got it anyway!!!

anyone else have anything like this happen? I told my buddy, she`ll be gettin new gutters cause it will cost more to fight it than settle it, this is wrong, I can see if its filed right away but in my case it was like 4months & in my buddies case 8months......so hire a contractor, get their ins. info & find something broke you cant afford/wont fix & let them fix it!!!!

LXT.............

 

[mckeetree]

Over the years we have had several customers pull similar crap on occasion.

 

[lxt]

with the economy woes & just society being sue happy!! Im thinking as is my buddy about putting in our contracts a clause to prevent such!! dont know if we can but im thinking hey!! might be worth the legal consult to see where we stand!!

I can see if the claim is made immediately & payment is withheld, but to pay someone in full!! & then months later or up to 2 yrs file a bogous claim is just wrong!! my insurance guy told me to take before & after pic`s to prevent this, I asked him "do you know how many pic`s that would be?" & whos buying the digital camera batteries?

funny they have 2 yrs, can withhold payment & get nice new stuff, but if we the contractor have a problem with a no pay, you have 120 days to file & must follow all the rules of debt collection, which in the end........almost doesnt seem worth it!!

LXT..........

 

[Bermie]

I DO take before and after pictures.
You can take dozens, and really the batteries are a non issue as long as you have the rechargable ones.

Fortunately we don't have a culture of suing here, and I reckon our insurance companies would tell someone to get cracking if they tried to pull a stunt like that so many months after the fact!

SOunds like you guys are going to have to do the 'please sign here if the work is finished to your satisfaction and there is no damage' thing!

 

[lt1nut]

Berinie is right on both counts: rechargeable batteries and the sign here clause. In addition to that, it can't be too hard to have a clause put in the contract stating that mediation is required if there are any claims of damage. Might as well have a clause that states that you need to be given notice of satisfaction before a claim being filed.

Is this something that the trade group(s) should address?

 

[TDunk]

I've often thought about having the HO sign an agreement that the job was done to there satisfaction, and that any damages were taken care of to the HO satisfaction. But when i talked to my insurance agent she said that the signed agreement won't always hold up in court. It would probably defer alot of people from trying to pull a scam. The the HO can very easily say that they were rushed looking to see if the damages were taken care of properly, there for missed some things. It's a bunch of BS if you ask me. 2 years, give me a break. Not to change the subject but when i raced motocross, you had to sign a waver to race, but if you wreck and get hurt in a race, you can still sue the owners. Now isn't that the whole point of having a waver is so that you can't get sued. I hope you and your buddy fair ok in your battles LXT.

 

[ZandarKoad]

Insurance

I may not know much about Trees yet, but I do know about insurance.

When you are paying for insurance please realize you are giving away your rights to remedy problems you cause. It's called subrogation. The insurance company could SUE you if you attempt to fix a problem without them. I for one would never ever give up my right to fix a problem I cause. If I cause damage, I can and will repair it. Why in the name of the unholy dollar would you PAY someone else to TAKE AWAY YOUR RIGHTS?

Because everyone else is doing it, and all the advice you receive tells you to do it.

Don't take advice. Ever. Learn for yourself the material in question and act accordingly.

The only thing you get when you pay for insurance is a warm fuzzy feeling. That's all. The insurance companies are PROFITING off your account. Period. They know the probabilities, and have done all the math. They WILL NOT loose money on your account no matter how many claims are filed. They have legions of statisticians who know every angle of every variable.

So... Can someone explain to me what you get from insurance other than warm fuzzies?

 

[Slvrmple72]

Zans, I have to ask what happens when you run your car left of center into the oncoming minivan full of kids and the pregnant mother and lets say the best case scenario everyone lives but have over 500,000 in medical bills?

 

[John464]

Here in wonderful tax the snot out of ya PA an insurance claim can be made up to two years after completion of work by a contractor.

My buddies finding this out the right now as I type this, apparently Home owner needs some new gutters, downspouts & gutter gaurds!! & she says he removed a limb that hit the gutter thus weakening the whole thing, she wants it replaced, he did the job 6-07 & shes just now filed the claim.

I had similar happen to me, took down 2 big sycamores, did all the cleanup & subbed the stump work out to a friend, the Homeowner wanted grinding debris left said he would clean it up, during cleanup a few spots were missed on the one stump the other stump was good.

so my friend returns to regrind the missed spots as I am personlly there to help, mind you this guy already paid in full, referred us to neighbors & gave me a couple dozen gloves from the mill he worked in.....He was happy, right?

Wrong......he dug around the stump while removing the debris thus exposing what was ground 8-10" below ground level in an attempt to level this side of the yard, due to me refusing to come back for free he calls my Insurance carrier & says I broke his sidewalk..........LOL

The agent told me right to my face that these cracks were old & it couldnt be proven if I did or didnt to this, but to fight this claim will cost more than what would be spent on the homeowners sidewalk which I didnt crack!!! so they will pay 1/3 the claim cause me, the stump guy & homeowner all did work their!! home owner gets $300.00 never fixed the sidewalk & has a nice level yard........which is all he wanted but didnt want to pay me to do it so it wasnt in the bid.....but he got it anyway!!!

anyone else have anything like this happen? I told my buddy, she`ll be gettin new gutters cause it will cost more to fight it than settle it, this is wrong, I can see if its filed right away but in my case it was like 4months & in my buddies case 8months......so hire a contractor, get their ins. info & find something broke you cant afford/wont fix & let them fix it!!!!

LXT.............

I can tell you that has not been my experience with insurance companies. Sounds like a search for a better insurance company is in order. My insurance company protects my a$$ from stunts like this. Just as it costs the other side to bring an invalid claim to court. The odds are within your favor in a fradulent claim. Your insuramce company will not just pay if you have a powerful insuance co. My insurance company will have some small time home owners joke of a hired attorney running away with his tail between his legs.

I dont know you if you guys remember but a few months ago I posted about a concrete pad on here that got cracked form our bucket truck. Brief summary was that we cracked a driveway. I offered to pay for it, small crack on corner. The homeowner didn't agree and wanted an entire new driveway so all pads matched in color. Since he decided to want more than what I felt was rightfull, I turned the claim over to my insurance co. Adjuster came out, measured the pad, found out it wasn't poured to code. I get a phone call from my insurance company that I wasn't liable for anything, not even the single pad. I put back the $800 in my pocket that initially offered for a new single concrete pad. The fool should of took it when I offered. Now the homeowner gets stuck with nothing for trying to be unreasonable. I always disliked working for this guy and I finally weeded him out!

 

[lxt]

I've often thought about having the HO sign an agreement that the job was done to there satisfaction, and that any damages were taken care of to the HO satisfaction. But when i talked to my insurance agent she said that the signed agreement won't always hold up in court. It would probably defer alot of people from trying to pull a scam. The the HO can very easily say that they were rushed looking to see if the damages were taken care of properly, there for missed some things. It's a bunch of BS if you ask me. 2 years, give me a break. Not to change the subject but when i raced motocross, you had to sign a waver to race, but if you wreck and get hurt in a race, you can still sue the owners. Now isn't that the whole point of having a waver is so that you can't get sued. I hope you and your buddy fair ok in your battles LXT.

TDunk, your agent sounds like mine, if you dont highlight that section it could be considered an attempt to deceive, etc..etc.. My claim is done & over but I learned that if a home owner wants to they`ll get something for nothing!!

My buddy knew I went through this situation, offered me advice, laughed, told me to get another ins. co, etc... was all in good fun(only tree trimmers), well now that its happening to him!!!! its oh crap! & he`s calling me to see what he can do, really............Nothing

I have to see what happens in his case, but we both are gonna split the bill & see an Atty. just in case!!

LXT....................

 

[ZandarKoad]

Zans, I have to ask what happens when you run your car left of center into the oncoming minivan full of kids and the pregnant mother and lets say the best case scenario everyone lives but have over 500,000 in medical bills?

Intense emotions are invoked which shut down the frontal lobe of the brain and persuade the potential insurance client to skip the ratiocination and sign the stack of papers they never read.

Who was at fault? Why did my car go left of center? Was I turning left? Was I drunk? Was I driving recklessly? Did the oncoming minivan have right of way? Was the pregnant mother drunk, or distracted by the van full of kids?

If I was at fault, I should remedy the damages I caused: I will be in debt to the family for the rest of my life, AND RIGHTLY SO.

If the pregnant mother was at fault and I have $500,000 of medical bills they owe me... Then she will be in debt to me for the rest of her life. If it was an honest mistake, then I will be more willing to forgive. If she was drunk... She'll never drink again in her life if she expects forgiveness from me. (Never-mind the fact that hospitals habitually over-charge insurance companies, and that hospitals do more harm than good in their treatments.)

HAVING SAID ALL THAT... What is the probability of this event? Infinitesimally small. The insurance company knows this.

Also, just HAVING insurance actually imperceptibly increases the likelihood that the event you described will occur. It's called "Moral Hazard."

Don't take my word for it. Research and think on your own.

 

[Ekka]

I dont think some-one can claim from your insurance here without your consent, plus the excess (deductible) has to be paid for the claim to proceed.

Seems you lot are run by out of control corporations.

 

[rmihalek]

LXT, I think oneway around this is to take before and after pictures from each job. Maybe 5 before and 5 after.

You'll just need a $50 digital camera (with rechargable batteries if you're concerned about such things) along with a 500 Gb external hard drive for another $150 or so.

For about $200, you'll have the capacity to take and store thousands of pictures AND the ability to say to the homeowner "let's take a look at the before and after pictures to see what the damage is." That right there would probably stop these bogus claims in their tracks.

 

[splittah]

So... Can someone explain to me what you get from insurance other than warm fuzzies?

you get them to pay for major damages when you screw up, not you personally maybe but every one makes a mistake every now and then, if I was the homeowner and you drop a tree on my brand new lexus are you gonna have the warewithall to buy me a new one??? most people Not, hense the insurance you carry. Furthermore, contractors in my state are REQUIRED to carry liability insurance or you go to jail my friend, I bet being in jail with "bubba" holding your hand would give you the "warm and fuzzies"eh?

 

[lxt]

I agree that Pic`s stored on a cd or laptop would have great benefits, not just for claims but for clients to view your work, the problem I have with this is the time period in which a person can file a claim up to 2yrs.

In PA any customer who requests a certificate of insurance & receives it has all the info necessary to file a claim, Now all they have to do is wait for something to need fixed, magically after filing claim Ins. companies must investigate, if the claim is under $1000.00 this is thought of as a minor claim & is usually resolved with cutting of a check & signing of papers!

My thought is 2yrs is a long time for a tree service, its not like building a house wrong or not grounding the electrical service, etc.. these things can take a long time to surface, removing a tree is pretty cut & dry 90 days should be the max to file a claim.

Now if treatment, cabling, lightning protection, etc... are involved then I can understand a longer time frame!!

thats what should be done by Insurance companies time limits to file a claim given a specific type of work, lets face it you remova a tree...you`re gonna notice quickly if something was damaged that wasnt damaged prior to the removal!!!! JMHO

I dont know maybe this is the new economic stimulus package???

LXT.............

 

[splittah]

I agree that Pic`s stored on a cd or laptop would have great benefits, not just for claims but for clients to view your work, the problem I have with this is the time period in which a person can file a claim up to 2yrs.

In PA any customer who requests a certificate of insurance & receives it has all the info necessary to file a claim, Now all they have to do is wait for something to need fixed, magically after filing claim Ins. companies must investigate, if the claim is under $1000.00 this is thought of as a minor claim & is usually resolved with cutting of a check & signing of papers!

My thought is 2yrs is a long time for a tree service, its not like building a house wrong or not grounding the electrical service, etc.. these things can take a long time to surface, removing a tree is pretty cut & dry 90 days should be the max to file a claim.

Now if treatment, cabling, lightning protection, etc... are involved then I can understand a longer time frame!!

thats what should be done by Insurance companies time limits to file a claim given a specific type of work, lets face it you remova a tree...you`re gonna notice quickly if something was damaged that wasnt damaged prior to the removal!!!! JMHO

I dont know maybe this is the new economic stimulus package???

LXT.............

Makes sense to me, 90 days for something like that would be reasonable.

 

[TDunk]

+1, 2 years is way to long. 90 days sounds about right.

 

[Ekka]

Our minimum excess (deductible) is $1000 so the insurance company doesn't get bothered with all the BS little claims.

As far as a home-owner bullying a insurance company into a claim ... fat chance, the insurance companies lawyers would sink you faster than the titanic, the stress would be on the claimant not the insurance company ... and certainly there's allowances for wear and tear of the "claimed damage". The insurance company might also force repair by only paying the repairer not the claimant.

In a case where the insurance company decides 30% payout due to poor construction and wear and tear and the claimant isn't satisfied then the claimant would have to sue the insurance company ... fat chance they'll win, the insurance company makes it's judgements prior and they have lawyers anyway.

Imagine if some-one has a tin roof that's pretty bad, rusty and the odd patched hole. A branch punctures the roof and dents it some. The insurance would just fix that part not reroof, they could if they were brazen enough even repair to the condition prior to damage which means get parts from a recycle builders yard. Dont like that, want better, pay the difference or take them to court. I doubt you'd win, the judges really dislike people who think insurance is some form of lottery.

However, it better cost more than $1000 anyway or it's your problem.

 

[TDunk]

I think the biggest reason people try to pull these type of scams is the fact that isn't doesn't cost them anything to start a claim. Most Co.'s will try to settle out of court just to save face, wether it's lagit or not. You take a look at the people sueing Mcdonalds for the coffee being to hot, even though the coffee lid says " caution HOT". Or people trying to sue Wendy's because they found a finger in there chilly. I know in Eroupe when you file a claim to sue someone and loose, you have to pay court cost, lost wages etc...... If they did that here, i think alot of the BS would end. Fortunetly, i haven't had any claims filed against me (knock on wood), but we live in a "sue happy" economy. I've worked hard for everything i have, so to have people out there taking advantage of other hard working people just rubs me the wrong way. I like Australia's Ins. policy Ekka !!!

 

[teamtree]

I may not know much about Trees yet, but I do know about insurance.

When you are paying for insurance please realize you are giving away your rights to remedy problems you cause. It's called subrogation. The insurance company could SUE you if you attempt to fix a problem without them. I for one would never ever give up my right to fix a problem I cause. If I cause damage, I can and will repair it. Why in the name of the unholy dollar would you PAY someone else to TAKE AWAY YOUR RIGHTS?

Because everyone else is doing it, and all the advice you receive tells you to do it.

Don't take advice. Ever. Learn for yourself the material in question and act accordingly.

The only thing you get when you pay for insurance is a warm fuzzy feeling. That's all. The insurance companies are PROFITING off your account. Period. They know the probabilities, and have done all the math. They WILL NOT loose money on your account no matter how many claims are filed. They have legions of statisticians who know every angle of every variable.

So... Can someone explain to me what you get from insurance other than warm fuzzies?

My insurance company paid one claim for me. It amounted to the premiums I paid them for 3 years.