Is arborist's license neccessary?

[NickfromWI]

I compare the I.S.A. to any goverment for good reason, ...They and people involved with them want to stop topping, spurring and other atrocities. They would like to see this legislated, like a plumbing or electrical code....

ummm, Isn't that a good thing?

love
nick

 

[Tinwoodman]

ummm, Isn't that a good thing?

Tarnation, no! Regulations are what we DO NOT NEED. Property owners must be free to do whatever they want on their own property, with their own property so long as it does not damage any one else or someone else's property. We don't need govt to tell us how to cut trees-- just to make it illegal to damage or remove someone else's tree without their consent. Keep it to the basics. Thou shalt not Steal. Thou shalt not do damage.

 

[Stumper]

Nick, No legislating it would not be a good thing. But to the ISA's credit, some there have appealed to members to educate the public and police themselves so that burdensome legislation can be avoided.

 

[Tinwoodman]

Right, Stumper. I agree.

 

[treeseer]

Right, Stumper. I agree.

Me too. And there is some truth in this--"I compare the I.S.A. to any goverment for good reason, they like any big organization...are out for power and control.". Power corrupts, but there is a check against that by individuals in that org, and by other orgs. THe free marketplace of ideas prevents corruption.

A private org is way different from government in that they cannot force individuals by threat of punishment as govts can. Govts have absolute power, which corrupts absolutely, and should be resisted. Resisting eduational orgs just because they are big? I don't get it. Big is good, because it draws in ideas from all over. :blob5:

The idea of rejuvenating old trees by radial trenching came to the USA because an ISA guy went to England and met a guy from China who told of successful rehabilitation of trees in Tiananmen Square via sand, branches and chickenpoop. You think you have soil compaction, and tyranny by big orgs? You don't have govt tank treads crushing the bodies of democracy advocates into the earth.

But I digress. A small org may not have reached far enough to get that info. Big is good, if enough little people stay involved and stir things up.

 

[Ekka]

ummm, Isn't that a good thing?

Tarnation, no! Regulations are what we DO NOT NEED. Property owners must be free to do whatever they want on their own property, with their own property so long as it does not damage any one else or someone else's property.

You know we have to regulate, to overcome peoples arrogance to change for the better. Unfortunately it's either a carrot or stick to motivate people to do the right thing and historically govts never hand out carrots to motivate people to do the right thing so bring on the stick ... because if you're doing the right thing you wont get whacked.

 

[Stumper]

You know we have to regulate, to overcome peoples arrogance to change for the better. Unfortunately it's either a carrot or stick to motivate people to do the right thing and historically govts never hand out carrots to motivate people to do the right thing so bring on the stick ... because if you're doing the right thing you wont get whacked.

NOT SO! We do not have to regulate to iniate improvement. It chaps my hindcheeks that AMERICANS of all people don't understand the power of the free market. (I make minor concessions for Aussies who naturally have an upside down perspective ) America became the worlds greatest economic (and military) power while subscribing to laissez faire capitalism. Yes it helped that we had a great suppply of natural resources and a continent to exploit and expand in but what made it happen was the freedom to innovate and create new solutions to fulfilling desires that weren't even full conceived. Were there bad businessmen who 'raped' the land and the customer-yes. However I get pretty sick of all the anti-business rhetoric. Private businessmen saved the buffalo from extinction. Private businessmen preserved archeologicol sites throughout this land. The ordinary citizens made decisions about who they wanted to deal with based upon their own self interest-NOT just short term self interest but the long term interests where morality and ethics matter more than the $ today. Confiscatory taxation and overweaning regulation encourage short term thinking, dodges and end-runs around the rules in order to try to survive a bit longer under the yoke of regulatory enslavement.
"That government which governs best, governs least."-Thomas Jefferson, famous dead guy. Author of The United State's Declaration of Indepence, credited with being the architect of America's Constitution. The president who paid off the Revolutionary War debt and made the Lousiana Purchase yet left office with a surplus in the treasury while NOTHING was taxed except imported items. (the purchase of which was completely voluntary).

 

[treeseer]

"That government which governs best, governs least."-Thomas Jefferson, famous dead guy. Author of The United State's Declaration of Indepence, credited with being the architect of America's Constitution. The president who paid off the Revolutionary War debt and made the Lousiana Purchase yet left office with a surplus in the treasury

Man, those were the good old days. Compare TJ's work to the modern disaster. Anyone got a time machine?

 

[Tom Dunlap]

. The doo-gooders got rid of three wheeler motorbikes

Wrong...that was the industry who did it voluntarily after seeing how many people died. Was there a threat by the gov to make them, I believe so. That was an industry decsions made by all of the manufacturers sitting down at a table together. But the gov didn't ratchet up the response.

Do you really want to have 3 wheelers again? Are lawn darts something you'd like at the picnic with people wandering around? Guns? The gun laws are pretty open south of the border. Explain yours...

Can you ever make a post without hitting the "ISA key" on your keyboard?

 

[Ekka]

Nice Stumper, real patriotic.

You got speed limits in America? Cars got air bags and seat belts?

Do you have to register a firearm? Does an engineer who designs a building have to be qualified? Are your surgeons quacks or educated?

I'm not talking about taking away your idealism but encouraging people to do the right thing, and protecting the consumer from malpractice. If you have an easier way ... spell it out. I'm sure ANSI regulations for the ropes and biners etc are protecting you or would you prefer to climb on some vines like tarzan?

JimNZ1 has dropped in from NZ for a short stay, he's blown out of the water by the volume of poor treework and recommendations going on. The industry runs around 75% unqualified people, just like America.

Have a look at what this recent thread revealed http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=21800

Three out of four companies that quoted this home-owner recommended topping ... so who's the minority? The good guys. And when consumers hear the wrong thing more often than the right they tend to believe it. Now if all those cowboys were educated they would be recommending more appropriate (tree friendly) practices.

So, educate, regulate or legislate. Funny thing is that you'd near on get an education for free (off the internet and sites like this) but the schmucks don't care. Then what, educate the consumer?

So next time your building a house you need to know all the rules? Forget it, it's easier to ensure the builders know the rules, and they pass an exam and get a license ... and if they do the wrong thing they get busted.

And this then negates the need for private litigation. Something America is full of.

So what do you think of these ideas? And like I said earlier, if you're doing the right thing ... what changes?

 

[Tinwoodman]

Ekka, greetings. I have been to Australia-- I spent nearly five months there, in fact. I really enjoyed much of my time there. The people were friendly, very laid-back and easy-going. Perhaps this is why such a large percentage of people in Australia (as well as a high percentage of people in America) give little thought to why we have laws, and whether we have too many or too few laws. The fact is, at least in America, the focus has gotten off individual responsibility and has switched to quantitative enforcement. 5,000 years ago, the code of Hamurabi, if I remember correctly, stated that if a building colapsed in the builder's life-time, the builder was to be executed. Now, I don't think we should go around killing people because they do poor work, but they should be held accountable for damages they cause. But that is no reason to burden people with a bunch of regulations. The marketplace and the individual need to be in control. There are nationally and internationally known non-governmental agencies who make it their business to investigate the safety and equity of products and services. In America, two that come to mind include the Cato Institute, and Consumer Guide. These organizations receive no government funding (as far as I know), but report that which is safe and good, and that which is not. So, I say, we don't need government building codes, OSHA regulations, etc. What we need is individual responsibility and accountability. I should have the right to cut wood without chaps if I want to. If I cut my leg off, it's my fault. As a matter of fact, I do wear chaps. I would even if I didn't have to. But I don't need the govt babysitting me. I can make my own decisions.

 

[Tinwoodman]

Do you really want to have 3 wheelers again? Are lawn darts something you'd like at the picnic with people wandering around? Guns? The gun laws are pretty open south of the border. Explain yours...



Everyone should have the choice to be stupid or not be stupid. Three-wheelers should be legal. If you're stupid enough to ride one go ahead. By the way, I have, and I was almost killed in a 3-wheeler accident when I was 8-years old. It's called personal responsibility. It is NOT the govt's job to protect us from our own stupidity. It is our own job to do that.

Lawn darts are like anything else dangerous and fun. It is up to parents to make sure kids don't do stupid things. If you take the lawn darts away, kids will go into the tool shed and play with dadd's axe. Kids will be kids, parents must be parents, individuals must be responsible. If you injure someone, you're responsible for it.

Guns? I have four, and it isn't enough. I still need a handgun, a good long-range rifle, and an assault rifle. I have to protect myself, because the govt sure won't and can't. Only you can protect yourself and your dependents.

If you want to get rid of everything dangerous, then there can not be any more forks, knives, razor blades, baseball bats, cars, belts, ropes, batteries, alcohol, motorcycles, scissors, or cans of soup. In fact, let's just make a govt regulation that says all people must have their hands amputated so they can't punch each other.

It all comes down to this. Things are not bad. People can be bad. If you are a good person, you must take the responsibility on yourself to protect yourself , your dependents, and your property, and to keep yourself, your property, and your dependents from harming others.

Whoever agrees whole-heartedly, not wishy-washy, give a hearty "Amen."

 

[Stumper]

Nice posts Tinwood. AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ekka my *** at Aussies was meant to be fun and to acknowledge that, while Austalians are probably the most similar to Americans culturally in the entire world we still have different backgrounds. As Tinwoodman pointed out-the issue is personal responsibility. As he mentioned-if there is a demand for independent testing and analysis of products or service providers, professional testers will appear within the framework of the free market. Re: ANSI-That is a private Organization. ANSI "rules" aren't law they are standards established voluntarily by industry. Freedom, what a concept. Both well meaning and self-serving social engineering tryrants have been selling the whole world a sack of natural fertilizer about government taking care of poor little old us "so don't worry your pretty little heads-we'll legislate your well-being." Government, by its very nature, becomes more inefficient and foolish the larger it becomes.To omany buraucrats have to take care of their own self-interest FIRST before they can care about others. I am quite capable of checking out things before I buy, making spot decisions about suitability for a specific need and will praise the good and criticize the bad. I know that you can also.If I have a retarded relative or neighbor I'll try to look out for them. If people around me seek my opinion I'll share. If people make stupid decisions.......the world will undoubtably end......but probably not immediately.-I'm fairly certain somebody has done something stupid in the past. :angel:

 

[Tinwoodman]

Yes, Stumper. Sounds like you're my kind of man. A true "free" thinker. Give me safety or give me death? No. Give me liberty or give me death. And we all get death sooner or later anyway. Death is the penalty for life. So make your life free, and make your life count.

 

[Tinwoodman]

And by the way, I don't have hostility to anyone. Please don't read me wrong. Liberty is for all, and the fact that we all have the freedom to share our views, even if they differ, is a great gift. Good night, all!

 

[Ekka]

Dear Tinwoodman & Stumper

I have a complete understanding of your point and fully agree that everybody should be both accountable and responsible for their decisions ...

... but each court room I have attended has 2 solicitors on opposing sides thinking the same. Both are correct?

Tinwoodman, unfortunately here in Australia if one of my workers doesn't wear his PPE and gets injured I get the fine whilst he gets the compo! That's a good law isn't it? That's accountability and responsibility on the individual isn't it?

And if one of my employees fells the tree into a house I cop it, whilst he shrugs his shoulders and says "wow, crap happens, not my fault I cut thru the hinge".

Stumper, so it's OK to sell snake oil in America?

Over here we don't and shouldn't have to look out for our ******* and neighbours, you would hope that whatever product and service they were purchasing was safe, could fulfill the purpose of it's design and was legal. It is a serious breach of our Trade Practices Legislation to sell snake oil, people get massive fines and go to jail.

Remember, 3 out of 4 tree companies recommended topping.

 

[Tree Machine]

Required certification would make hacks outlaws. Certification would assure treemen are AWARE of proper practices and industry standard. Certification is training is education.

Am I FOR required certification? I'm for education, but how do we educate those out there who have never heard of an Arboristsite, or could really care less? It's like runaway, homeless, b@stard foster arborists, slipping through the cracks of the system.

 

[Stumper]

I live in a community with a licensing scheme. To be licensed one must pass a test. The City Forester goes over the test with the applicant and explains the correct answers on any missed questions. The test covers the evils of topping. There are 10 licensed arborists working in this community. I am the only one who does not top trees. I resisted licensure for several years as a matter of principal. For several years all the licensed arborists in this community topped trees. The UNlicensed one refused to top trees and missed jobs because of it (He also missed a few jobs because he wasn't "licensed" but built a reputation as a knowledgable, competent tree man). Wow. Licensure ensures competence. How could I have missed that?

 

[Ekka]

Yes Stumper good point.

The education is there but there is no enforcement. No penalty.

That's the other problem. Imagine if the topping people got fined? Or if the home owner got fined? Do you think the practice would diminish? I do.

 

[Stumper]

Ekka, I concede that point to you-Fines would change behavior. However, I think the sacrifice of freedom is too high a price to pay for the benefits that would derive from heavy-handed enforcement.