Is arborist's license neccessary?

[Tinwoodman]

I really enjoy the good points everybody is making here. We all see things slightly differently, yet most of us can at least somewhat see where each other is coming from. Ekka, you are definitely right that topping is evil. And unfortunately that is what most people do around here. There are only a few species of trees that can survive a topping well, and when they do survive, you have nulled out the reason you topped the tree to begin with. Like the magnolias I took down in February and March. They had been topped years back, and had shoots growing out of the tops over twenty feet above where the trees had been topped. Pretty stupid, huh? But-- education is the key. Education should be available, but not mandatory. If you force everyone to everything the same way, you lose FREEDOM. Does a man do a poor job working on trees? Then he will gain a bad reputation, and his business will suffer. Does a man do a good job on trees? Then his reputation will flourish, and so will his company. This is called free market economics. Follow the regulation path and all the chainsaws will be coming out of the factories with those protector tips on the ends to supposedly prevent kick-back. Let me ask you something fellows, how many of you use a saw with a tip-guard???? They are definitely safer. (I guess). And blame inconvenient. Can you imagine what a "safe" chainsaw would look like? They would take all the dangers away until you were left with nothing but a rubber ball like kids play with. Or a squeeky toy that looks like a chainsaw. Peace and Safety, Peace and Safety! the world chants. I agree peace and safety are good, but we must realize for once and for all that peace and safety are sometimes ok to do without for the sake of FREEDOM. I would rather be free to choose safety, and be free to enjoy peace, than to have squeeky-toy safety and jack-boot peace afflicted on me forcibly. I am all for education. But it must be voluntary. If people want their trees topped, let someone else top them. It's their fault when the tree dies and falls on their Mercedes. The truth, not to use a cliche, is truly out there. We must each be diligent to pursue it and promote it. Far too many governments, past and present, have tried to establish hard and fast truth, hard and fast regulations, hard and fast control over their people. From Napolean's France, to Hitler's Germany, Lenin's Russia, Ho Chi Min's Vietnam, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Mao Tse Tung's China, Saddam Hussein's Iraq, and David Koresh's Waco, the leader always brought such horrific violence, death, and despair on his people as to totally outweigh any benefits of order and discipline. Think about it. Freedom is for all. The stricter our government on the things that should be individual choice, the worse it is for our society. Ekka, Australia and America are actually very different. Both began as colonies of England, but those who sailed to America carried a brave dream of freedom. Those who first sailed to Australia did so against their will. Those who followed after sought their fortune in the mines and on the rangeland, much like the drifters and pioneers who settled the American West. But remember the Jolly Swagman, Ekka. What did he say? "You'll never catch me alive, said he". I know there's still a lot of fighting spirit left in Australia. I've seen it. In 1997, I calmly fired a bolt action rifle about twenty-five times, and from all results, killed about 17 turtles that were infesting my boss's waterhole and mucking it up. This was in Victoria. I, an American, illegally hunted wildlife in Australia with a contraband weapon. The fact was, I didn't even know it was illegal at the time. But the fight is on. I think we have one last chance for this freedom thing. Shall we have freedom in our lifetime?

 

[Tree Machine]

Wow...

 

[Tinwoodman]

Yeah, so call somebody up to arrest me. Think they'll extradite me? I wouldn't have done it if I realized I was breaking the law. The farmer handed me the gun and told me to do it, my eyesight was better than his.

 

[Ekka]

Poor turtles.

But you have lost me with what you're on about, I think you are saying that no regulations and a free market place is better.

That customers ultimately have the onus to choose what they feel is best. If they choose a hack, bad luck.

Something along those lines is it?

 

[a_lopa]

not everyone came here unwilling,the real bad guys went to new zealand

 

[Tree Machine]

Hey now, that's a poke in the eye there, buddy. There'll be no trash-talking your neighbors. That's not nice.

 

[Tinwoodman]

Ekka, you understand me. You sucinctly summed up my beliefs on the subject. Good on ya, mate. Even if you don't agree, at least you understand what I mean. If everyone agreed about everything, wouldn't it be a boring world? That's what makes life so interesting.

 

[alanarbor]

There are only a few species of trees that can survive a topping well, and when they do survive, you have nulled out the reason you topped the tree to begin with. Like the magnolias I took down in February and March. They had been topped years back, and had shoots growing out of the tops over twenty feet above where the trees had been topped. Pretty stupid, huh? But-- education is the key. Education should be available, but not mandatory.

Stupid indeed, the consumer obviously made an ill informed choice. Education is availible, but not always that easy to get to if you have a job, kids, etc. You just want a competant contractor to do the job, and do it right. There should be codes and laws protecting you, the consumer from the uneducated arborist/plumber/electricians/builders. Oh wait, there are, for plumbers and electricians and builders, but not for arborists. Why not?

Does a man do a poor job working on trees? Then he will gain a bad reputation, and his business will suffer. Does a man do a good job on trees? Then his reputation will flourish, and so will his company. This is called free market economics.

Actually, most of the hacks around here are doing quite well.

If people want their trees topped, let someone else top them. It's their fault when the tree dies and falls on their Mercedes.

granted some clients can't be told other wise, and I personally will walk away. But........

If you top a tree and charge for it, you're a theif. Period. There are hacks out there still spiking and topping, and telling people this is acceptable.

See www.cuttree4u.com

When people call a tree service, they should reasonably be able to expect competance. I see no problem with legislating that.

I selected a few sections of the original quote to address specifically. My notes are in blue. Please go back and read the whole post, it's quite good and articulate though I don't entirely agree with all of it.

 

[Tree Machine]

If you top a tree and charge for it, you're a theif. Period.

Hard to argue this point.

Not only did a theif do his work, but then he leaves, and everyone local is left to live with the results. The customer is unsuspecting, gets taken. All the viewers of that tree from there on out become victims of the work.

Poor, unacceptable tree work has a negative ripple effect on many, including the overall perception of our industry that we're so diligently trying to put a proper shine on.

When people call a tree service, they should reasonably be able to expect competance.[/QUOTE=Alan]When people call a tree service, they should reasonably be able to expect competance.

Yea, what he said.


We need to get all the incompetents, bring them to Arboristsite, start a "For Incompetents ONLY" thread, and help em get competent. That's why we're here, Yes?

 

[Ekka]

Ahh yes, but you can take a horse to water but can't..... you know the rest.

What about, a leapard doesn't change it's ..... you know the rest.

When I started out and was "ignorant" and had no idea I went to the local library and borrowed books ... free. Fortunately I sifted the good from the bad and ended up with Shigo books. I learnt where to cut etc and so the story goes.

It's something I cannot understand and gives me a headache, why why why do these people stay so stupid, because they choose to. If they're going to cut a tree just cut it in a better place! Not rocket science but they don't give a stuff ...

... and occasionally customers praise their work as being "exactly what I wanted".

I just don't get it, and honestly, I don't see a solution if regulation etc is ruled out. The hacks in my town are doing bloody well, their business is booming.

 

[vharrison2]

Yes Stumper good point.

The education is there but there is no enforcement. No penalty.

That's the other problem. Imagine if the topping people got fined? Or if the home owner got fined? Do you think the practice would diminish? I do.

In Key West Florida, both the homeowner and the company can be fined. Highest I have heard of is $ 35,000.00. levied against the homeowner. The homeowner went to the special master and I really don't know if they had to pay or not, was a couple of years ago. If you are going to trim trees in Key West, you better do it to ANSI standards.

 

[Ekka]

In Key West Florida, both the homeowner and the company can be fined. Highest I have heard of is $ 35,000.00. levied against the homeowner. The homeowner went to the special master and I really don't know if they had to pay or not, was a couple of years ago. If you are going to trim trees in Key West, you better do it to ANSI standards.

Is that only if it happens to protected trees? Please read on before you answer.

Because over here if a protected tree is pruned incorrectly, yes, there may be fines. But if it's just another tree in some-ones yard and there's no protection order they can pretty much do what ever they like.

Here's an example, customer has in their yard a sizable Jacaranda tree that has a vegetation protection order on it as it's outside the 3m ruling .... the council has said no to removal but allowed pruning, they would stipulate something like this

A/ a crown reduction on house side to provide 1m of clearance away from structure

B/ a crown lift to 2.5m high except for road where it has to be 5m

C/ deadwood

But the customer thinks beauty, pruning. And gets Idiot & Co Tree Loppers in who take the top out and leave a weird looking cactus formation.

Then there is a case.

But if that same tree were within 3m of the boundary fence or the building there would be no protection order and the council couldn't do anything about how it was pruned.

 

[vharrison2]

ANY tree that is over 4" dbh is regulated and protected. ANY limb over 4" in diameter on tree that is 6" dbh is regulated and protected. Permit is required and mitigation is likely. Very strict down there.

 

[treeseer]

ANY tree that is over 4" dbh is regulated and protected. ANY limb over 4" in diameter on tree that is 6" dbh is regulated and protected. Permit is required and mitigation is likely. Very strict down there.

THings have really changed down there in the 20 years since I left. Considering how tiny that island is and how key trees are to air and water quality and livability there, I support the effort. It's consistent with Libertarianism: governments are instituted among people to ensure their right to life. Life is dependent on clean air and water, which means it is dependent on trees. therefore regulating the retention of trees is a proper function of government. Can any libertarian question that?

"you can take a horse to water but can't..... you know the rest."

And the rest is..."You can take a horticulture but you cannot make him think".
(So you must prevent him from doing harm)
That's Dorothy Parker's joke.

 

[Ekka]

Now there's some pretty tough rules ... not that I mind, did it get rid of hacks?

 

[vharrison2]

Well, there are a few hacks down there gettin in trouble all the time. One guy just lions tailed the crud out of one of our maintenance accounts. The gaustapo came right to us........we had to find out who did it. Don't know why she did not hire us....price I guess. You get what you pay for eh?

 

[Stumper]

V, So you had to proclaim your innocence AND find the guilty party? Gestapo indeed.