Is this safe to climb on?

[Nailsbeats]

Treemandan, I have to post something just to hit 100 replies on this thread so I will address you about asking me if I really climbed on it. I will answer you in the words of Clearance "everything I have said here is true". I don't blow smoke to get a rise. When I used it I watched it contantly, never shockloaded it, and was tied in twice most of the time. Also, the heights were not extreme. Knots have to be invented and tested somewhere. This may not satisfy you but it's still the truth.

 

[tree MDS]

Treemandan, I have to post something just to hit 100 replies on this thread so I will address you about asking me if I really climbed on it. I will answer you in the words of Clearance "everything I have said here is true". I don't blow smoke to get a rise. When I used it I watched it contantly, never shockloaded it, and was tied in twice most of the time. Also, the heights were not extreme. Knots have to be invented and tested somewhere. This may not satisfy you but it's still the truth.

You didnt invent it, its a single overhand- or in your're application probably better deemed "the widowmaker".

 

[safeT1st]

Down the Tube

So ?? Whats your point at least I'm honest- oh and thanks for taking my comments and breaking them up out of context I allready addmitted smoking pot- so what? I suppose thats supposed to make me a bad treeguy ? I'll take my 17 years climbing exp. over your 4 lonely years jingle jangl'in about anyday.[/UNQUOTE]



The point is you are a drug addict.
Who admitting to climbing while on drugs.
Your opinion on climbing systems is worthless.


Judging by your post you are stuck in the past in your personel life and in your work methods.


1) Get some help for your drug problem
2) Grow up
3) Adapt
4) Evolve

Someone who is still making the same mistakes after 20 years isn't doing any of the above.

This thread has lost it's original purpose and deteriorated to a series of libelous personal attacks . Perhaps you might consider using PM's for this crap .

 

[treemandan]

Treemandan, I have to post something just to hit 100 replies on this thread so I will address you about asking me if I really climbed on it. I will answer you in the words of Clearance "everything I have said here is true". I don't blow smoke to get a rise. When I used it I watched it contantly, never shockloaded it, and was tied in twice most of the time. Also, the heights were not extreme. Knots have to be invented and tested somewhere. This may not satisfy you but it's still the truth.

Oh, here I thought you said you went climbing in it. Of course I took that to mean " you went climbing in it". If you said " I was putzing around with this" I would not have been so surprised, scared actually.
Man did they go nuts on this. I don't even know what is being talked about here. Anyway, nice pictures, bad knot, don't die seeya.
Why do you feel you have to post something, what happened at 100?

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I actually met a local guy the other day when I bought my 200t that said you and Tom Dunlap taught him more in 4 hours than he could have ever learned on his own.

Was that Scott? That was fun, we played in a park for a few hours and went through a bunch of knots and gear.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

This thread has me wondering : Why is someone with that gear unable to identify the knot he put his life on the line with ?

Because he comes from a tree working family that works oldschool and is trying to better himself.

There is no one in his area who he can ask, so he came on line.

What always amazes me is people jumping on those less educated/informed/whatever when they come here with a concern. Who is the insulting one here?

 

[046]

I'm reading this in disbelief :censored:

your dad is a climbing instructor... and you would use a single overhand knot and clevis pin for a life line? :monkey:

Speaking of experience, my dad is my tree trainer and mentor, he has been at it for 35 years, and has run his own crew commercially, now we have a family gig. You know what his advice was, "run a bowline".
He is oldschool and hardcore. Get it done, bottom line. Well I am trying to experience with some more current stuff, still getting the job done though, that comes first. Take the good and leave the bad, but never think you know it all.
He told me about the worthless drug addicts on the commercial scene, well I guess the truth is out.

Funny thing about my dad though, the older I get the smarter he gets. I tell him about the forum all the time and he just laughs.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I hope that the topics being bandied about in this thread are recognized as dangerous by newbies that want to live a long productive life in this business.

These are just the opinions of a veteran climber happily suffering the ravages of old climbers disease.

Anyone using the systems being promoted in this thread better have perfect control of their cutting tools 100 percent of the time if they want to live very long in the tree biz IMHO.

I do not get into trees as big as you do, but I'm in 60-70 ft oaks and elms quite often, and I've not used wire core for years. I climb on a 5/8 VT hitch on 11mm climbing line, though I don't splice it because I like changing ends regularly.

I use spliced slings more often then rigging knots, and put a carrabiner on the end of the rigging line, I've had a GRCS for around 8 years now and love it.

I may have been working in trees for around half the time you have, but I've never cut through the working ends of my rope (got the running end jammed in my saw twice, but it's been 10 years since that)

I will agree that a new climber should start with a basic system, but this is not rocket science. Some of the stuff they are showing at tradeshows is wierd

 

[tree MDS]

I wish I knew someone around here that uses a VT, it actually looks very interesting- I'm just the kind of guy that has to see a thing in person/see it tied etc. I climb old style with 2 on bottom 1 on top taughtline. I dont even use a clip, I just tie two overhands on my d's-interestingly enough the way I started this was years ago when my groundman lost my climbing line one day- I had a 600' spool and just started with no clip, I actually was pi$$ed at first but actually found it easier without a clip because there is no clip to get stuck in a crotch-plus your rope gets more even wear, the no clip thing works well on big prunes where you gotta move your tail often and tie in twice. I tried a clip again and got rid of it quick because when limb walking it seemed like my knot at appropriate span was too far away to reach easilly. This system is a little slow for cranework but I dont really do mush of that anyway, I actually bought a split tail just for that but spiked the first 15' pretty quick-too much jingle jangle anyway, but I'll try another just to stay up to date. At least I learned to footlock about twelve years ago, that has helped alot at times.BTW, yes I know I should use a bowline in case I ever need to rescued, but thats a risk I'll take.

 

[jomoco]

Even though I'm an admitted old school minimalist, anyone thinking I don't incorporate any of the newer techniques and equipment would be mistaken.

I love the little purple pulley slack tenders, I have leather cambium savers on every one of my Samson true blue climbing lines, and though I'm a technical removal specialist, I use them religiously to protect my expensive ropes from wear and tear, sap etc. I also love speed lines for those pesky limbs over targets as well as the more advanced haul back lines on them for situations where the whole dang tree is way out over a house or building, and total control of the rate of descent is an absolute must.

But here in So Cal in the dog eat dog world of commercial tree service competition, seeing Palmer, Thompkins, Phillips etc at the tree seminars loaded down with their saddles sagging with all those fancy doodads and gadgets is somewhat of a joke for those of us that have to compete and produce or else. Try hauling all that crap up a 160 foot euc on a class 1 prune and you'll see what I mean. An old school guy like me will set his line and foot lock up with nothing but his razor sharp handsaw in a boot scabbard, prune away in a very methodic manner, and if theres any big crossovers or big limbs too big for a handsaw, I'll already have my 200T tied to the end of my climbing line and ready to go without crying out for a groundman to set it up for me. It's called high quality production tree service, and a minimum amount of gear with a maximum amount of pruning ability and knowledge is required to do it competitively.

I bought one of those sliding dee ring saddles along time ago, used it a couple times, and hated it because I couldn't triangulate with it in a stable manner, this meant that whether I was cutting with a handsaw or chainsaw I couldn't push or pull with it without flopping about sliding back and forth on my lower saddle, it drove me crazy, when I'm cutting I want to be secure enough to be able to push or pull with my cutting tool without any unnecessary movement in my saddle period. It also creaped me out only having one dee ring attachment point on my saddle, if for any reason that bridge were to fail, it's game over and you're screwed. Atleast with my old school saddle I can lose one dee ring or its attachment webbing without taking an express ride to the ground so very far below me.

I know many of you think I'm a cantankerous old school jerk, and in many respects I am, I hate dang near everything about these newfangled climbing saddles out now, there itty bitty dee rings, there single point attachment for a bodyline, all those unnecessary loops going around them to get hung up on something at the worse possible time. Give me a clip and a ring on each side that is secure and doesn't move around at all, that's all I need in terms of tool attachment points. I tried out a friends new Sherril saddle with 4 dee rings, and even though it was very comfortable, I hated it for its tiny dee rings, its lower strap buckles location being too high, and particularly its tool clips being an absolute pain in the butt to disconnect a tool from, whoever designed those clips was an idiot. I would never recommend that saddle to anyone that climbs for a living.

I love my old Sierra Moreno eucman 4 dee ring (large dee ring) saddle, once I riveted the tool clips and rings into place, it's become one of my most trusted best friends. When the leather lower attachment straps and buckles wore out, I just took it to my leatherman and he replaced them with heavier saddle leather that's still going strong to this day. Hats off to Don Blair for selling real old school working saddles that last and perform for decades of hard use.

I encourage all newbies to atleast check out the tried and true old school equipment and methods, then carefully select from the newer high tech stuff that makes this dangerous profession a bit easier and safer. It's great to have a wide variety of tools and equipment to choose from for each job you do, but be picky about the amount the you actually take up the tree with you, in my long career my tool truck has been packed full of all kinds of saws and equipment, but when I go up each tree I take the bare minimum necessary to get the tree done safely and right every time.

Work safe guys

jomoco

 

[Nailsbeats]

Was that Scott? That was fun, we played in a park for a few hours and went through a bunch of knots and gear.

I didn't get his first name, I think I know his last, slim dark haired guy. He had my 200t set up when I got their, I believe he is the son of the saw shop owners. We started talking and of course climbing came up, then he mention you and Dunlap. Buy the end of the conversation he offered to port my 460 and let me try his. Really nice guy, I will probably get a hold of him in the future to show me some jazz. He is the only guy I have ever met in my life that talked about climbing besides my family. I litterally don't know anybody else that climbs trees.

Everybody around here is a logger or farmer, no body cares if you are a certified arborist. It just isn't here yet. I hope to get certified some day and offer that service if I can find a demand for it. I am trying my best to get educated, for example I don't like to top if I don't have to anymore and pruning with my spikes on has me sweating. Most people are in the same boat, what is proper vs. what I get paid to go.

 

[masterarbor]

Even though I'm an admitted old school minimalist, anyone thinking I don't incorporate any of the newer techniques and equipment would be mistaken.

I love the little purple pulley slack tenders, I have leather cambium savers on every one of my Samson true blue climbing lines, and though I'm a technical removal specialist, I use them religiously to protect my expensive ropes from wear and tear, sap etc. I also love speed lines for those pesky limbs over targets as well as the more advanced haul back lines on them for situations where the whole dang tree is way out over a house or building, and total control of the rate of descent is an absolute must.

But here in So Cal in the dog eat dog world of commercial tree service competition, seeing Palmer, Thompkins, Phillips etc at the tree seminars loaded down with their saddles sagging with all those fancy doodads and gadgets is somewhat of a joke for those of us that have to compete and produce or else. Try hauling all that crap up a 160 foot euc on a class 1 prune and you'll see what I mean. An old school guy like me will set his line and foot lock up with nothing but his razor sharp handsaw in a boot scabbard, prune away in a very methodic manner, and if theres any big crossovers or big limbs too big for a handsaw, I'll already have my 200T tied to the end of my climbing line and ready to go without crying out for a groundman to set it up for me. It's called high quality production tree service, and a minimum amount of gear with a maximum amount of pruning ability and knowledge is required to do it competitively.

I bought one of those sliding dee ring saddles along time ago, used it a couple times, and hated it because I couldn't triangulate with it in a stable manner, this meant that whether I was cutting with a handsaw or chainsaw I couldn't push or pull with it without flopping about sliding back and forth on my lower saddle, it drove me crazy, when I'm cutting I want to be secure enough to be able to push or pull with my cutting tool without any unnecessary movement in my saddle period. It also creaped me out only having one dee ring attachment point on my saddle, if for any reason that bridge were to fail, it's game over and you're screwed. Atleast with my old school saddle I can lose one dee ring or its attachment webbing without taking an express ride to the ground so very far below me.

I know many of you think I'm a cantankerous old school jerk, and in many respects I am, I hate dang near everything about these newfangled climbing saddles out now, there itty bitty dee rings, there single point attachment for a bodyline, all those unnecessary loops going around them to get hung up on something at the worse possible time. Give me a clip and a ring on each side that is secure and doesn't move around at all, that's all I need in terms of tool attachment points. I tried out a friends new Sherril saddle with 4 dee rings, and even though it was very comfortable, I hated it for its tiny dee rings, its lower strap buckles location being too high, and particularly its tool clips being an absolute pain in the butt to disconnect a tool from, whoever designed those clips was an idiot. I would never recommend that saddle to anyone that climbs for a living.

I love my old Sierra Moreno eucman 4 dee ring (large dee ring) saddle, once I riveted the tool clips and rings into place, it's become one of my most trusted best friends. When the leather lower attachment straps and buckles wore out, I just took it to my leatherman and he replaced them with heavier saddle leather that's still going strong to this day. Hats off to Don Blair for selling real old school working saddles that last and perform for decades of hard use.

I encourage all newbies to atleast check out the tried and true old school equipment and methods, then carefully select from the newer high tech stuff that makes this dangerous profession a bit easier and safer. It's great to have a wide variety of tools and equipment to choose from for each job you do, but be picky about the amount the you actually take up the tree with you, in my long career my tool truck has been packed full of all kinds of saws and equipment, but when I go up each tree I take the bare minimum necessary to get the tree done safely and right every time.

Work safe guys

jomoco

well said jomoco, if you've tried it all and found what you like- then yur high tech as far as i'm concerned. i'd like to climb on of those 160' eucs. 100' is sky high around here.
kevin

 

[pdqdl]

You belong in a line to buy a lottery ticket! LOL.

Clever ! I did laugh out loud.

 

[beowulf343]

Donny-kind of surprised to see you not tied into the clevis but pulled through and tied. Basically a stopper knot. Is this normal for you bridge users. Just curious as to why you did it this way.

Dude, believe you've read me for long enough to know I'm for real. I use it because it works. if you can give me a reason not to,,,, I'll stop...............

Jeez, donny, if you can get your head out of your ass long enough, reread my post. I said flat out i have next to no experience on a bridge saddle. Around here, i've only seen the bridges tied directly onto the clevis's like WLL's picture. I had an idea why you do it the way you do but since I DON'T HAVE ALOT OF EXPERIENCE WITH A BRIDGE, thought i'd ask. You have seemed to know your stuff so i figured you had a good reason for running the bridge like you do. Just asking a simple question, looking for a simple answer. I had absolutely no intention of slighting your ability as a climber or calling into question your judgement. I don't care how you set up your saddle, i just like hearing why a pro sets up his saddle the way he does.

tie that double fisherman's on the other side of the clevis once you reinstall them. that way when your biners are on that ring and run'n along your bridge they will never touch the knots. much like donnyo's. IE. the same.

Thanks's oldirty-that's what i thought and was wondering why i haven't seen it more often.

 

[pdqdl]

... I cut a new (longer) rope and made one with double fisherman knots on both ends. I removed the shackles and tied right to the nylon loops in the saddle. ...

As I tuned into this thread this evening, I was showing one of my climbers your photo. We were wondering why you were using the clevises, and we concluded that although not as secure as just tying on (as you seem to have settled on), the clevis might provide good protection against wear on the loops of the saddle.

Any thoughts on that ?

 

[pdqdl]

LOL!
...
I noticed in another thread that Nails has said he often free climbs wearing spikes into tree tops without being tied in. It's hard to miss the developing pattern.

Your comment reminded me of another company/climber I saw recently. All the safety minded folks should get a real good "pucker" feeling from this: the climber was touted by all the ground men as being "the best around", while working about 50 feet up in the tree.

Safety equipment: spikes. No lanyard, no belt, no climbing line. Crawling way out on branches, cutting large limbs off while catching them with a normal lowering rope arrangement tended by the ground men.

If the limb shook a little too much, I guess he just planned on tightening his grip ! The ground men all stated that he had 15 years experience. I don't see how.

 

[oldirty]

Jeez, donny, if you can get your head out of your ass long enough, reread my post. I said flat out i have next to no experience on a bridge saddle. Around here, i've only seen the bridges tied directly onto the clevis's like WLL's picture. I had an idea why you do it the way you do but since I DON'T HAVE ALOT OF EXPERIENCE WITH A BRIDGE, thought i'd ask. You have seemed to know your stuff so i figured you had a good reason for running the bridge like you do. Just asking a simple question, looking for a simple answer. I had absolutely no intention of slighting your ability as a climber or calling into question your judgement. I don't care how you set up your saddle, i just like hearing why a pro sets up his saddle the way he does.



Thanks's oldirty-that's what i thought and was wondering why i haven't seen it more often.

its funny you two having a little back and forth.

i was just telling someone the other day that if they had any questions about how they might want to do something tree related you two guys were the ones to chat with.

and now this. lol





anyway yup. if i hadnt switched out those clevis for bigger screw lock d rings, donnyo's rope bridge would be on my saddle. i switched to the bigger
ring to help lengthen the saddle out. i cant do my bridge like his with my setup.

 

[tree MDS]

YAARRrr...

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

i switched to the bigger
ring to help lengthen the saddle out. i cant do my bridge like his with my setup.

I like the delta link, or ovals. I have several delta links on my Master

 

[046]

just put my money where my mouth is... in post above. stated New Tribe Tengu saddle had fabric D rings and was OK to use rope to rope.

just ordered a Tengu saddle direct from New Tribe customized with proper leg sizing to belt and stainless pear link. currently using blakes, but if I chose to use VT, two binners will fit fine.

I like the delta link, or ovals. I have several delta links on my Master