Its Electric!

[les-or-more]

lets not gloss over shoveling the tracks, retreaving truck, waiting on truck to show up, argueing with the driver about ? whatever?
fueling machine, as well as untold number of unforseen issues

no one is moving a 200 sized excavator, more then once a day, unless they like losing money, claiming its common is bs, generally a machine that big us looking at several days, even weeks on a job

This seems hard for you to comprehend, but look at the first pic, that 490 is sitting on stone, there isn't anything to shovel, not all but many of the jobs are the same, acres of stone, concrete and asphalt. We complain all the time about the musical chairs with the machines, at times it seems ridiculous but the owner has a lot of very nice iron, so he must be doing something right.

 

[Bill G]

well i guess if you wanna get an unsecured load fine, then only having 2 tie down points would take a mere 20 min, that doesnt include moving said truck, splitting the lowbed, driving machine onto trailer, reconnecting lowbed.

but yeah if you intend to half ass it sure it saves time

lets pretend that im not the employee, and i am the owner, and the guy thats responsible for how my truck is loaded

I have a couple stories about that. Our neighbor was hauling his dozer to a job and did not bother to chain it. He went down one hill and made the 90 degree turn at the bottom. As he proceeded up the next hill he knew something was wrong as the semi was pulling the hill too good. Sure enough over in the ravine was the dozer. As he made the turn it went right over the side and down the hill. I bet he had fun retrieving it. There was no damage to the machine.

About 25 years ago I was hauling a utility box on my flatbed. I did not bother to secure it as I knew it would not go anywhere. As I was approaching the south end of town there was a Iowa DOT officer talking to a farmer along the highway. He whipped out behind me and followed me into town. I have had some humorous run-in's with officers but this guy made me really laugh. He said "sir your trailer lights are only working part of the time" I just started to chuckle because the lights were not even hooked up. He was full of crap. He then told me the load need to be secured and told me to walk to the farm store and buy some rope. He said he would notify city PD to be watching for me and not to leave until it was secured with rope and the lights worked. I said "yes sir, officer" waited an hour and had my father follow me.

 

[OM617YOTA]

All well and good but what realistic purpose does it serve?
Setting up the charging station will cost more time, labor and quite possibly more carbon than burning diesel.
Heavy mining shovels are one thing but they spend their life in a single reasonably small area. A 200 class is going to need serious infrastructure to recharge in a timely manner. Here that machine could be on three different job sites in a single day.

JCB started developing hydrogen combustion engines because of this kind of thing. They started instrumenting their machines and found that in some countries it was common to hot swap operators and keep running, never shutting down. I don't remember the exact number, but something like 7000 hours on a machine in a single year. There are less than 9000 hours in a year, total. Just zero time for a machine to sit and recharge a battery, but they can be refueled with hydrogen as fast as they can with diesel. Hydrogen combustion engine packages the same and fits in the same space as a diesel engine, without needing a fundamental redesign of the whole machine to make best use of the tech, like battery or fuel cell electric would require.

Lots of folks already carry tanks to refuel off road diesel equipment. A hydrogen refueling rig would be a different flavor, but a lot of folks are already used to the basic idea. Generate hydrogen with whatever power source you like, from unicorn farts to nuclear.

 

[les-or-more]

JCB started developing hydrogen combustion engines because of this kind of thing. They started instrumenting their machines and found that in some countries it was common to hot swap operators and keep running, never shutting down. I don't remember the exact number, but something like 7000 hours on a machine in a single year. There are less than 9000 hours in a year, total. Just zero time for a machine to sit and recharge a battery, but they can be refueled with hydrogen as fast as they can with diesel. Hydrogen combustion engine packages the same and fits in the same space as a diesel engine, without needing a fundamental redesign of the whole machine to make best use of the tech, like battery or fuel cell electric would require.

Lots of folks already carry tanks to refuel off road diesel equipment. A hydrogen refueling rig would be a different flavor, but a lot of folks are already used to the basic idea. Generate hydrogen with whatever power source you like, from unicorn farts to nuclear.

I don't have any issue with electric where it makes sense. Most sites here are lucky to have a 15 amp 120 outlet, often there is no infrastructure at all, that is why we are there, to install infrastructure. Spending thousands to install chargers at multiple sites is not going to work out too well.

 

[OM617YOTA]

I don't have any issue with electric where it makes sense.

Same here. Nor do I have any issues with alternative energy, where it makes sense.

 

[Bill G]

I don't have any issue with electric where it makes sense. Most sites here are lucky to have a 15 amp 120 outlet, often there is no infrastructure at all, that is why we are there, to install infrastructure. Spending thousands to install chargers at multiple sites is not going to work out too well.

I have no issues with alternative either but in many cases it is a net loss. Over 30 years ago I worked for the US Army Corp of Engineers at a Lock and Dam. Folks would often ask whey we were not a hydro-electric dam. I would try to explain our maximum head was 8 feet and that is only in a drought. A good portion of the time our head was 6 inches. In comparison I believe the Hoover dam has about 350 feet of head. I will not stand by that number and welcome those who know to correct me

 

[Bill G]

I don't have any issue with electric where it makes sense. Most sites here are lucky to have a 15 amp 120 outlet, often there is no infrastructure at all, that is why we are there, to install infrastructure. Spending thousands to install chargers at multiple sites is not going to work out too well.

My 20 year old son left Saturday for North Dakota with a vintage Lincoln Pipeliner powered by a 6 cyl Continental squeezed in the bed of his truck. He got a temporary layoff from Deere and the Pipefitters union sent him to a oil pipeline in North Dakota. You can bet there will be not flipping 240V outlets there

 

[northmanlogging]

I don't have any issue with electric where it makes sense. Most sites here are lucky to have a 15 amp 120 outlet, often there is no infrastructure at all, that is why we are there, to install infrastructure. Spending thousands to install chargers at multiple sites is not going to work out too well.

how do you think the 120v gets to the site?
Please do some thinking about this, cause its pretty standard in the US, common enough I'd be surprised if anyone could prove they only had 120v at the breaker box.
But also, remember, they have solar charging stations as well, so infrastructure be damned
And to repeat myself cause you clearly can't fathom it, the charging module, is portable, it comes with the machines, how hard is that to comprehend? know what redacted it, never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience

 

[Bill G]

how do you think the 120v gets to the site?
Please do some thinking about this, cause its pretty standard in the US, common enough I'd be surprised if anyone could prove they only had 120v at the breaker box.
But also, remember, they have solar charging stations as well, so infrastructure be damned
And to repeat myself cause you clearly can't fathom it, the charging module, is portable, it comes with the machines, how hard is that to comprehend? know what redacted it, never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience

Sir,
I respect what you have said but I will gladly discuss the details of what you said regarding electrical delivery. In your own words "please do some thinking"

 

[OM617YOTA]

Let's bust out the calculator.

180hp excavator
180hp x 746w per hp = 134,280w power consumption
134,280w x 8hrs = 1,074,240 watt hours, a megawatt hour per day

200a service panel x 240v = 48,000w
48kw x 24 hours = 1,152,000wh

So that's just barely enough to charge one excavator. That's assuming 100% efficiency, which won't be the case, assuming no one else needs any power for anything else, and also ignoring the 8 hours the excavator will be working and not plugged in.

Just for funsies, let's get an idea of how much solar that would take. I'll use my own solar panels as a basis, because those are the numbers I have off the top of my head.

1mw needed per day, divided by ~8 hours average sunlight per day to collect it, means 125,000w needs to be harvested per hour.

125,000w divided by 410w panels is 305 panels, which will cover almost 5900 square feet.

This is very far from portable. For comparison, the roof of the average semi trailer is 424 square feet. This is also assuming that the panels will actually harvest their full rated output, which won't happen - 75% would be good, which means even more panels would be needed. In the winter, you'll be lucky to harvest 10% of rated output.

As I said, I'm not against alternative energy, when it makes sense. Solar powers my fridge, lights, and well pump. This device that I'm typing this on was charged by solar, the water for the shower I just took was pumped by solar, the clippers I used on my hair and beard were powered by solar. It makes sense there.

For a reasonable size excavator? We're not there yet.

 

[OM617YOTA]

Oh, and a megawatt hour of battery storage would be 18,000lbs. Again, that's using my own battery numbers, because that's what I have off the top of my head. 90lbs/5kwh, lifepo4 chemistry.

This same 1mwh of energy is contained in 67 gallons of diesel, which weighs 436lbs.

 

[Bill G]

Let's bust out the calculator.

180hp excavator
180hp x 746w per hp = 134,280w power consumption
134,280w x 8hrs = 1,074,240 watt hours, a megawatt hour per day

200a service panel x 240v = 48,000w
48kw x 24 hours = 1,152,000w

So that's just barely enough to charge one excavator. That's assuming 100% efficiency, which won't be the case, assuming no one else needs any power for anything else, and also ignoring the 8 hours the excavator will be working and not plugged in.

Just for funsies, let's get an idea of how much solar that would take. I'll use my own solar panels as a basis, because those are the numbers I have off the top of my head.

1mw needed per day, divided by ~8 hours average sunlight per day to collect it, means 125,000w needs to be harvested per hour.

125,000w divided by 410w panels is 305 panels, which will cover almost 5900 square feet.

This is very far from portable. For comparison, the roof of the average semi trailer is 424 square feet. This is also assuming that the panels will actually harvest their full rated output, which won't happen - 75% would be good, which means even more panels would be needed. In the winter, you'll be lucky to harvest 10% of rated output.

As I said, I'm not against alternative energy, when it makes sense. Solar powers my fridge, lights, and well pump. This device that I'm typing this on was charged by solar, the water for the shower I just took was pumped by solar, the clippers I used on my hair and beard were powered by solar. It makes sense there.

For a reasonable size excavator? We're not there yet.

You are applying simple, proven, science to a situation where those on the other side are totally lost.

 

[northmanlogging]

Oh, and a megawatt hour of battery storage would be 18,000lbs. Again, that's using my own battery numbers, because that's what I have off the top of my head. 90lbs/5kwh, lifepo4 chemistry.

This same 1mwh of energy is contained in 67 gallons of diesel, which weighs 436lbs.

well, I'm not going to split hairs with the battery numbers, cause I simply don't know enough, other then they make it work, so? something somewhere isn't adding up.

however, 18000 pounds, how heavy do you suppose the counterweight is on a 20ton excavator? which would normally be full of concrete, odd bits of scrap iron and sometimes just lead?

 

[northmanlogging]

though, if your using all 180hp for a full 8hr day... you might be doing something wrong

And I could be wrong, but just because 1hp equals 746watts, doesn't necessarily mean your using all the watts all the time, and frankly if a a Tesla, can be charged in less then 8 hours, with a 400hp motor, I think theres some maths there both of us are missing, charging a battery isn't necessarily the same as discharging a battery either

 

[Bill G]

though, if your using all 180hp for a full 8hr day... you might be doing something wrong

And I could be wrong, but just because 1hp equals 746watts, doesn't necessarily mean your using all the watts all the time, and frankly if a a Tesla, can be charged in less then 8 hours, with a 400hp motor, I think theres some maths there both of us are missing, charging a battery isn't necessarily the same as discharging a battery either

You are comparing apples to lemons.

 

[les-or-more]

how do you think the 120v gets to the site?
Please do some thinking about this, cause its pretty standard in the US, common enough I'd be surprised if anyone could prove they only had 120v at the breaker box.
But also, remember, they have solar charging stations as well, so infrastructure be damned
And to repeat myself cause you clearly can't fathom it, the charging module, is portable, it comes with the machines, how hard is that to comprehend? know what redacted it, never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience

Are you aware that the 12 ga wire that supplies 120v isn't going to supply 200 amps of 240 v, no matter how many unicorn farts you collect? I posted a picture of the jobsite where I built the bridge, there isn't even 120v on site it is a couple thousand feet to the nearest transformer, do you understand how much it would cost to bring a 200 amp service that distance just to temporarily charge an excavator that will be done in a day or two and moved to another site. Keep in mind that site will not have electric service, it is a walking trail and park, so the charger service would have to be removed at further expense We arent talking about running a cord you picked up at walmart here, there is serious cost involved .

 

[Bill G]

Are you aware that the 12 ga wire that supplies 120v isn't going to supply 200 amps of 240 v, no matter how many unicorn farts you collect? I posted a picture of the jobsite where I built the bridge, there isn't even 120v on site it is a couple thousand feet to the nearest transformer, do you understand how much it would cost to bring a 200 amp service that distance just to temporarily charge an excavator that will be done in a day or two and moved to another site. Keep in mind that site will not have electric service, it is a walking trail and park, so the charger service would have to be removed at further expense We arent talking about running a cord you picked up at walmart here, there is serious cost involved .

I just took a look and 4/0 overhead tri-plex is $7.12/ft at the discount yard. The wire alone for a 2000 ft run would be in excess of $14,000. That sounds feasible.........................

 

[sean donato]

Doesn't matter what anyone says, you won't change his mind for better or worse, because the rest of us are stupid. Just look at his replies. He doesn't want to "be brought down to our level."

 

[Bill G]

Electric makes perfect sense in certain situations but too many folks think it will work in all situations.

 

[Franny K]

Oh, and a megawatt hour of battery storage would be 18,000lbs. Again, that's using my own battery numbers, because that's what I have off the top of my head. 90lbs/5kwh, lifepo4 chemistry.

This same 1mwh of energy is contained in 67 gallons of diesel, which weighs 436lbs.

My latest Makita batteries are 185 watt hours per kg. My ktm battery is 63 pounds and holds 3.88kwh but to fully charge from fully depleted it consumes 4.05 kwh from the grid. The ktm battery has the dc to dc converter in it as well. 360 1965 cells.

I would suggest for the last line I copied above something like the grams of mix per kwh some chainsaw makers put in the manual ISO 7293. There is similar statistic for ag tractors in the Nebraska tests. Unfamiliar with excavators and where to get this info. I only put it on full speed to travel but it is a tiny machine. Something like a 32,000 pound manlift (it is arborist site) is in lift mode essentially at idle compared to travel where the wheel speed, pump volume, and engine speed switches make a drastic difference in exhaust velocity. My guess is you are using energy contained value for just making heat in a controlled setting, could be wrong.