Its Electric!
- Thread starter northmanlogging
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That's all been calculated. Most of those emissions from manufacturing and transport of raw materials are moot, they happen when you build an ICE powered machine too. Battery equipment is slightly worse, it takes a couple years to break even with ICE equipment, depending on how the power is generated, but it definitely does happen.
This reminds me of the idea that was running around for awhile about how solar panels never generate as much power as was required to manufacture them, and are a net loss. Same idea, simply inaccurate.
The used batteries are very recyclable, they're basically already extracted lithium/cobalt/etc ore. Far too valuable to throw away.
Since most of the Lithium is mined in China, it seems they have a very severe soil polulution problem.
"Chinese officials are only starting to come to grips with the severity and extent of the soil pollution that has contaminated vast areas of the nation’s farm fields — by one estimate more than 8 percent of China’s arable land. But one thing is already clear: The cost and complexity of any remediation efforts will be enormous"
".The list of cadmium-related deaths in Shuangqiao has since grown longer, and evidence is mounting of a national pollution crisis that has contaminated China’s soil and food crops and threatens to overwhelm efforts to put it right."
Until recently, the Chinese government also resisted media efforts to draw attention to local epidemics of cancer in China’s newly industrial areas. It was not until February 2013 that the Ministry of Environmental Protection (MEP) finally admitted that “cancer villages” existed in China, and released a list that included the area around Lake Tai and the villages of Fenshui and Zhoutie. Some civil society experts have estimated that there are 450 cancer villages in China, and they believe the phenomenon is spreading.
Is the high cost of electric vehicles, in terms of human lifes, really worth it. When the soil is so contaminated that the local farmers wont eat the crops they grow, but they grow them anyway and then export them. I really wish someone somewhere could come up with the solution, but I can guarantee, pushing for more electric vehicles isnt the answer.
"Chinese officials are only starting to come to grips with the severity and extent of the soil pollution that has contaminated vast areas of the nation’s farm fields — by one estimate more than 8 percent of China’s arable land. But one thing is already clear: The cost and complexity of any remediation efforts will be enormous"
".The list of cadmium-related deaths in Shuangqiao has since grown longer, and evidence is mounting of a national pollution crisis that has contaminated China’s soil and food crops and threatens to overwhelm efforts to put it right."
Until recently, the Chinese government also resisted media efforts to draw attention to local epidemics of cancer in China’s newly industrial areas. It was not until February 2013 that the Ministry of Environmental Protection (MEP) finally admitted that “cancer villages” existed in China, and released a list that included the area around Lake Tai and the villages of Fenshui and Zhoutie. Some civil society experts have estimated that there are 450 cancer villages in China, and they believe the phenomenon is spreading.
Is the high cost of electric vehicles, in terms of human lifes, really worth it. When the soil is so contaminated that the local farmers wont eat the crops they grow, but they grow them anyway and then export them. I really wish someone somewhere could come up with the solution, but I can guarantee, pushing for more electric vehicles isnt the answer.
I believe there is a little bit of a problem with that reasoning. Unless the Chinese are doing something unusual, lithium and cadmium mining should not be contaminating any of the agricultural fields.
Of course, I think we all understand that China does what the central government wants to do, regardless of the health of their citizens. They probably mix their waste chemicals into bags of fertilizer, just so as to get rid of the materials. Does anyone remember this:
https://www.petage.com/10-years-lat...-after-the-widespread-melamine-contamination/
Of course, I think we all understand that China does what the central government wants to do, regardless of the health of their citizens. They probably mix their waste chemicals into bags of fertilizer, just so as to get rid of the materials. Does anyone remember this:
https://www.petage.com/10-years-lat...-after-the-widespread-melamine-contamination/
One of the areas where BEV makes sense on that scale.
I worked on the equipment elevator at Morton Salt Mines 10-12 years ago, they were also converting to electric at that time. The Ops manager said their ventilation system was one of the larger costs on the mine site.
I think you should do a little more research as to just how bad the contamination and pollution is in China before you start labeling things as unusual. How many other countries do you know of that paint their landscapes green to hide just how big the problem they actually have is. I think a lot of it has to do with greedy individuals and politicians than it does with the national governments.
Why I will never own a 'Toaster Car despite what this current administration is promoting.
vs oil, that is one time use, poof its gone, except the smog, sulpher, co2 etc etc
the copper, iron aluminum, silics lead alll that stuff is going to come from the very same sources of yesterday and tomorrow.
the lithium, mostly comes from south america, were its "mined" by letting water evaporate...
so we could move forward with a renewable source of energy, or we can keep sucking on big oils mamms and paying whatever they decide we can afford, or fight more and more piontless wars over oil (how much of an ecologic disaster do you suppose those are compared to lithium)
being how that water, came from the ground water? i dont think anything different is going to happen.
lest we forget about tanker spills, pipeline spills, train derailments, gas leaks.
fracking causing tapwater to turn flamable (ok that ones only partially true, it happened but only in one area were wells are stupid shallow)
to say nothing of a generation of plastic waste
Lithium = China and China don't give a shitte one way or another
Well, no. I'm not sure you understand what is going on in that picture. What you are seeing are evaporation brine ponds, not ground water. Lithium bearing salt water is pumped to the surface into the holding ponds where the water evaporates away leaving mineral rich salts. Additions of fresh water and purifying compounds helps to further concentrate the valuable minerals. So it isn't ground water you are looking at, it's saline aquifer water and increasingly concentrated minerals, which are quite toxic.
what do you think an aquifer is? lithium bearing salt water, pumped to the surface?
where did that water came from?
and last i checked, to get eayer to evaporate... you generally dont add more
For the Idiots that think Lithium is the great cureall replacement for fossil fuels.
https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/renewable/the-environmental-impact-of-lithium-batteries/
We can continue to reliy on foreign oil, or we can rely on China and their strangle hold on rare earth metals production, or we can stop with this madness of allowing someone that doesnt give two shites about the enviroment and produce our own energy in the US. Less Pollution, more American jobs and we stop supporting evil governments that would like nothing more than to see the US burnt to a crisp and wiped off the face of the earth.
https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/renewable/the-environmental-impact-of-lithium-batteries/
We can continue to reliy on foreign oil, or we can rely on China and their strangle hold on rare earth metals production, or we can stop with this madness of allowing someone that doesnt give two shites about the enviroment and produce our own energy in the US. Less Pollution, more American jobs and we stop supporting evil governments that would like nothing more than to see the US burnt to a crisp and wiped off the face of the earth.
All I know is we can be energy independent, Trump proved that. Now we have an administration that just cancelled oil leases in Alaska, allows American based companies to drill for oil in Venezuela and won't allow upgrading or new refineries here. We have a Bizzaro government.
I keep saying, 'better learn to eat raw fish with chopsticks' because it's coming.
I keep saying, 'better learn to eat raw fish with chopsticks' because it's coming.
America has a proud tradition of privatizing profits while socializing liabilities for several industries. One side of the discussion likes to scream about this when it comes to oil, but thinks it's completely fine to ignore it when it comes to electric cars? Also conveniently ignoring how many EVs are powered by coal?
The inconvenient truth RE lithium mining, particularly in arid regions such as South America is that the mining process puts a strain on the ground water supply. So much so that it has repeatedly put local villages in dire straits. Big oil ain't the only one that puts profits above all else....especially where there is little to no regulation.
https://www.nrdc.org/stories/lithiu...indigenous-communities-high-and-dry-literally
https://www.nrdc.org/stories/lithiu...indigenous-communities-high-and-dry-literally
The process that was shown was using sea water which evaporates over time and more is added to boost the mineral deposits left .
Same way they produced sea salt for thousands of years , it can take a year or so before enough salt is accumulated before harvest . Do a search on solar salt production
Electric will be the norm someday but not today and or the near future . Just too many obstacles right now for one your just trading off one entity that hates us and the rest of the west with oil to another with lithium
I think I see your confusion here. This water is toxic from the moment it is pumped to the surface. If you sprayed it over crops they would die. If you dumped it into a river the fish would die. As it evaporates the salts and toxic minerals become even more concentrated. If these ponds leak they will contaminate soil and fresh water sources. Yes, more fresh water must be added continually (different source than the brine) along with purifying agents to continually concentrate the lithium. The goal is not to evaporate all the water away and dry up the ponds. The evaporative process along with additives causes the lithium to form precipitates and fall out of solution. The remaining toxic liquid is a waste product. Remember, lithium is the target element but there are many other compounds dissolved in the brine, which are also being concentrated at every step. This includes Cadmium which is lethally toxic. You don't want it in your soil or fresh water.
