This is an electric thread in the forestry and logging section. I could quote the banking sentence and comment but won't.
Its Electric!
- Thread starter northmanlogging
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I don't think anyone has yet come up with an efficient method of capturing energy from the tides. There just isn't that much potential energy difference between the high and low tide, such that friction doesn't suck all the life out of whatever capture method is used.
Granted, there are massive amounts of energy involved with all that moving water, but I don't think anyone has managed to efficiently convert that into electricity yet. Still… They are trying in some parts of the world.
https://www.hydropower.org/blog/technology-case-study-sihwa-lake-tidal-power-station
https://actionrenewables.co.uk/news-events/post.php?s=everything-you-need-to-know-about-tidal-energy
Well of course they are. That stuff is too expensive to throw away. Sadly, as salvage goes, it doesn't pay too well on account of being so light.
The everything that you need to know about tidal energy video, mentioned that at least the current technology needs a tidal exchange of 5 meters, which is approximately 16.5 feet?
That is a pretty significant tidal exchange, IIRC the tidal exchange of Nehalem Bay here in Oregon is on the order of 8 feet or less, and at the 8’ exchange, I wasn’t messing with that bar in our 17’ boat.
Also IIRC, the tidal exchange is almost nil, at the equator, and increases the further you get from the equator. I would have to check tide tables for many locations, but I rather doubt that there are many, if any, suitable locations in the Continental US, probably some/many in Alaska, but that is not a very populated area, and likely wouldn’t be cost effective for the smaller markets each plant would serve
It also mentioned that it is NOT a continous production cycle, but is more PREDICTABLE, than “other renewable options “, so the technology has Potential, but isn’t likely to ever be a BASELOAD power source. With more development, it does have the potential to be a supplemental power source, but end of the day, there isn’t a renewable, other than Hydro which isn’t likely to see much more development, to replace the Baseload Power Sources that we currently have.
Doug
I pretty much agree with your conclusion regarding the near future potential for any electrical source apart from hydroelectric. I think this is because we have been doing hydroelectric for a long time, and it is the easiest "renewable" source of energy to capture.
It takes a great deal more to consider than just the total amplitude of the tidal exchange.
Even the locations with the greatest tides are usually quite mild. Where the sun, moon, and earth are located for any given tide, as well the location and geography of the earth where measured make a huge difference in how much energy is available.
And... The total height of a tide doesn't amount to a hill of beans, given that it takes 6 to 12 hours to reach that maximum. Unless the tide capture method can block off the water level change until it maxes out, and then capture it all in a short period, the available energy at any given moment for converting into electricity is rather limited.
There is an LOT of frictional loss involved with energy capture when the difference between high and low energy states is rather small.
It takes a great deal more to consider than just the total amplitude of the tidal exchange.
Even the locations with the greatest tides are usually quite mild. Where the sun, moon, and earth are located for any given tide, as well the location and geography of the earth where measured make a huge difference in how much energy is available.
And... The total height of a tide doesn't amount to a hill of beans, given that it takes 6 to 12 hours to reach that maximum. Unless the tide capture method can block off the water level change until it maxes out, and then capture it all in a short period, the available energy at any given moment for converting into electricity is rather limited.
There is an LOT of frictional loss involved with energy capture when the difference between high and low energy states is rather small.
Mr battery himself (Elon) admitted it is cheaper to build new vs recycle.
to be fair, it started as ellectric powered machines, with remote recharging ability, its morphed into a green energy argument
I may be incorrect, but I seem to recall hearing on Rush Limbaugh that all electric grade copper comes from new while the recycled copper can be sensibly used for other things. It was around the time a convention used miles of wire. Obama era. That newest battery Musk/tesla had a special event perhaps a year ago breaking the news it is a much larger cell and sure looks to have a lot of copper in it.
Remember when compact flourescent bulbs came out. Average lifespan xxxx but some must have infinite life as some crapped out pretty soon. Then they made them for a whiter type of light and then light emitting diodes and those made interference with the radio and the wireless phone but that seems to not be the case anymore.
John Deere is experimenting with electric tractor; I think in the 200 to 300 hp range but they don't seem to think battery is there, yet they use wires to a generator for now. I see some mini sized excavators are coming to shows like the CSE held yearly in Las Vegas, but they don't have removable batteries that a forklift could take to the charger.
This is a problem is everywhere. In Vermont, in theory, one cannot build on prime farmland. Unfortunately, there are more exceptions than rules. If one has enough money, they can permanently conserve an equal amount of farmland somewhere else for the right to, destroy, I mean build on prime farmland. Our county is 83% forest and/or mountains, we are not making new farmland. Once it is gone it is gone. In this area, large, remodeled farmhouses (read second home) with a 100 or so acres are going for a million plus. Down the road, one piece of property has three houses on it, but the "kids" of the deceased old lady want to build another new house "second home" in the middle of the hay field.
Permits:
If I want to live in a carboard box, and I am up to date with rent to the town (property taxes) why should the town care?
Our niece had a tiny house on our property for 18 months, before the town had its hissy fit. Do you have a permit? No, they already knew that. Threatened with $200/day fines, until we had a permit. Applied for the perming and was denied, because the tiny houses did not have permanent water supply which then needed a septic system. We wrote back that tiny houses are providing a solution to many of Vermont' stated problems: affordable housing, young people leaving the state, strain on water and sewer infarstucture, being to rent with pets. We stated that the tiny house did not need a permaent water supply because it had water tanks thanks that were filled as needed and did not need a sewer systems because it had composting toilet and separate gray water system. My niece also said in her letter that she was moving, so the town never responded. Cowards!!
If she would have put the tiny house on the other side of the barn (which I suggested becuse it would gotten better winter sun for the solar panels) no one one would have seen it and the town fathers and mothers could have gone on their merry way.
Back in the early '80s, me and my friend put in a new septic system at the place we were renting. We got a pamphlet for the New York State DEC on installing a septic system. If I remember correctly the size of the leach field is determined by the number of bathrooms and the perc test. After the that, you just had to be able to read the instructions, a level and a tape measure. Today you need to hire an engineer to tell you that **** flows downhill.
Granted, there are folks that would dig a hole, bury an old car, cover it with old tin or old railroad ties, put the sewer line through the window cover it up with dirt and call it a day.
wut? How does copper magically change when its recycled? oddly enough most domestic copper mines, and lead for that matter have shut down, because recycling has taken much of the need for raw materials away. Copper in an element, I can't fathom how any alloying process or former use could permanently change it, since it can easily be refined back to pure copper.
As for the tractors, you drive them to the charging station, just like you do with fork lifts, golf carts, etc etc etc, some have removable batteries but I think its rare that anyone bothers to pull them, most folks just charge them overnight for the next days work. Granted if you are a dumb ass and keep working well after the battery says hey bud, take me back to the barn, you deserve the extra days work of lugging a generator into a muddy field to rescue a tractor, no different then running one out of fuel. priming a diesel in a mud hole is considerably less fun then plugging in a generator and waiting 2 hours.
That card board box is fine and dandy if its just you living there, problems arise when folks start slapping paint on the side and trying to sell them at market value for a 1 bed bungalow with a view...
The enginerd thing on septics has gotten out of hand, but its the same sort of deal as you mention, folks were using oil drums with the drain field being literally the neighbors field... so the 'authorities' got involved.
its the same old story a few morons ruined a perfectly good system for everyone else
Electrolytic-tough pitch copper
I could not find any source to substantiate what I put about only from ore before however if dissolving in sulfuric acid and then electro plating out is easy refining or perhaps recycling is likely subjective.I did find the below quote which I found interesting.
“The term ‘tough pitch’ originates from the time when molten copper, after refining, was cast into ingot moulds. During refining, the copper was oxidized to remove impurities and then reduced by hydrogen to give the correct oxygen level. To monitor this process, a small sample was taken, and the solidification surface was observed. If the surface sunk, there was too much oxygen; if it was raised, there was too much hydrogen. If it was level (correct pitch), the oxygen was correct, and the properties good; in other words, ’ tough,’ hence tough pitch. “
Gee, I Believe that Lead from Lead /Acid batteries, is recycled into………wait for it…………..NEW BATTERIES
Who Knew??
evidently not Northman.If recycling old Lithium Ion batteries was PRACTICAL, there is a pretty good chance that Musk would be doing it. There is a HUGE Difference between Possible, and Cost Effective. Now why again do you think
(Sorry, forgot who I was addressing) that Elon Musk isn’t recycling Lithium Ion Batteries???Doug
Gee, I Believe that Lead from Lead /Acid batteries, is recycled into………wait for it…………..NEW BATTERIES
If recycling old Lithium Ion batteries was PRACTICAL, there is a pretty good chance that Musk would be doing it. There is a HUGE Difference between Possible, and Cost Effective. Now why again do you think
Doug
To be fair, Tesla has claimed they have the ability to recycle something like 90% of a lithium car battery. But their current battery construction makes it expensive, inefficient, and potentially dangerous to recycle them. I've heard from Elon's mouth more than once that it is cheaper to build from scratch than recycle.....unfortunately so long as there is no regulation in the US that forces manufacturers to recycle they'll likely choose the lowest cost route for the foreseeable future.
Again, if I was in the business of selling new batteries, would I be advocating the recycling of said batteries?
If I was in the business of selling oil, would I be advocating for green energy?
If I was in the business of selling coffins, would I be advocating for folks to quit smoking?
Consider the source when someone like Elon says its too expensive, Hardly Davidson says to only use their oil, because they make $2 a quart on it, Stihl says to only use their 2 smoke mix, because they make $4 a pint on it.
I feel like this should be covered in elementary school.
If I was in the business of selling oil, would I be advocating for green energy?
If I was in the business of selling coffins, would I be advocating for folks to quit smoking?
Consider the source when someone like Elon says its too expensive, Hardly Davidson says to only use their oil, because they make $2 a quart on it, Stihl says to only use their 2 smoke mix, because they make $4 a pint on it.
I feel like this should be covered in elementary school.
hosocat
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I was enthused about tidal energy when it was first discussed that I remember back in the 1970s. But a major problem has been corrosion and maintenance. That has doomed most tidal projects.
Using this logic, why would a diesel engine manufacture ever dream of adding several thousand dollars worth of equipment to their exhaust (aftertreatment system)? Well duh, because regulation.
There SHOULD be some form of regulation regarding spent Lithium batteries. Wonder why there isn't?
