Jonsered Chainsaws

[Real1shepherd]

IH red is not a good match (of course IH red opens a whole other can of worms). I've found that Ford Engine Red from Duplicolor is really close. That body shop did a nice job color matching. The few times I've done a color match (never tried for Jonsereds) I was disappointed.

Good to know. A good employee at an auto paint shop can match best I reckon.

Kevin

 

[Cantdog]

IH red is not a good match (of course IH red opens a whole other can of worms). I've found that Ford Engine Red from Duplicolor is really close. That body shop did a nice job color matching. The few times I've done a color match (never tried for Jonsereds) I was disappointed.

I believe the Jonsered/s red has changed over the years. Most notably when Husky took over. The older, true Jonsereds red seems "Red-er" to me than the more recent red saws. Red is about the hardest color to match on anything painted as it changes by itself over time. I'd guess a computer color analizer from a pro paint shop could get it right but would be darn spendy to paint a saw part!!!!!

 

[Real1shepherd]

Reds are tricky because some have 'yellow' tints and the like. I too think the J'reds have 'changed' reds somewhat. Even Husky orange has changed over the decades. I hate touch-up painting just about anything.....

Kevin

 

[numnutz6383]

If the outside of the seal is painted, you don't have to worry about case imperfections or using a 'filler'.

If you've cleaned out the bearings with solvent, I'd take a syringe(the ones with the mild plastic hook) with 2cycle oil and saturate the bearing where you can....using the point to force the oil into the bearings. Examine the shaft carefully....feel any grooves, dress the shaft appropriately. Yes, grease the inside of the seal.

Instead of shim stock, you could use an old 35mm film roll.....cut off what you need.

Kevin

In this case- solvent was perhaps interpreted as something harsh enough to remove all oils from the bearing and leave them dry for initial start up- mix contains oil, so you are good to go- but never hurts to lube bearing while you can see them.

Perhaps replace "painted" with "coated" the metal ring has a non corrosive coating so it stays fresh looking while packaged- a bit like varnish and lends your brass-ish colour.

Dress the crank stub where the seal sits with anything that is needed- polish with scotchbrite if next to nothing can be felt I guess- but the main gist of this is remove any nicks or burrs that might cut the inner lip face of the oil seal and thus render a new seal useless- not an always required step, but sometimes the crank can be marred when old seals are removed.

If you cannot use 35mm film, think similar- the thin stiff plastic from the lid of a cookie box? Thin flexible and non damaging with a thin profile. I use the side of a thin wall pop or beer can- but you must be careful cutting the section you will use to ensure no sharp edges and nice rounded corners.

Lol....are old film rolls unobtainium now?? I have one on the ground even that lives near my garage....I just haven't pitched it yet.

What you're looking for on any shaft with a seal is a 'lip' from dirt and the seal wearing into the shaft. Mostly on chainsaws, you can't even feel it with a fingernail...might just be some discoloration where the seal rode.

When I worked at that gold mill in CO, shafts, bearings and seals were essential in keeping things running. I was schooled to prep shafts so as to not get premature failures. Sooooo....my suggestions here might seem like somewhat overkill.

A lot of the seals I have used more recently have red 'paint' obviously applied to the outer part.....but any coating they have will aid in your installation.

No problem using 2cycle oil as your solvent inside the crank bearings....I misread that to mean brake cleaner into the bearings.

Kevin

Re: dressing the shaft. I can't discern any tactile imperfections with my fingernail, however I do see the discoloration Kevin mentioned.



Other than scotch Brite pads (I have maroon and brown), what would be an appropriate way to dress these areas? 400 grit sandpaper?

 

[numnutz6383]

I like the deep socket method to keep the spring and center part of the seal from 'folding'. You're being cautious, you'll be fine.

Kevin

I ended up using a strip of maroon scotch Brite pad that I soaked in 2 cycle mix, wrapped the shaft with it, unserted past the case towards the bearing, and spun the shaft to clean the discoloration from where the seal sat, exactly what you stated. I didn't feel anything tactile with my nail so I think that was it.


To install the seals the shim stock didn't work out. Couldn't get it to roll well, old film would've been ideal. Anyways, I greased the inside of seal, oiled the seal lips and shaft, and carefully slid them down. Took a few tries to start them straight, had to gently remove with needle nose pliers and restart a few times. Here is the final product.


I guess only I'll find out if they hold once I pressure and vacuum test, which at this pace will be next year.

 

[Real1shepherd]

You'll probably be OK. Sorry, late to the party if you were wanting an answer about the shaft discoloration. I would have used the brown ScotchBrite to remove most of it. Yep, the pressure & vac test will tell if the seals hold.

Kevin

 

[numnutz6383]

You'll probably be OK. Sorry, late to the party if you were wanting an answer about the shaft discoloration. I would have used the brown ScotchBrite to remove most of it. Yep, the pressure & vac test will tell if the seals hold.

Kevin

The pictures I included above are the before pictures. Those discolorations were gone when I finished cleaning with the maroon Scotch Brite, I just didn't take pictures after cleaning.

I am a little concerned that I didn't really clean the oil off the case mating surface where the seal sits.

I should've measured the seal dimensions to see if I can order them at the same place @Cantdog gets his to get extras, fleabay sellers really charge a premium for the 503260202 seals

 

[Real1shepherd]

15mm x 30mm x 7mm is the most common size on older J'reds. Of course, you'd want to verify that with your particular saw.

Robin has used TCM in the past. I'm told by reliable sources that over 95% of the world's seals are now made in China. I guess that means I have to quit being stubborn about the 'C' word/world.

I'd only be concerned about oil residue on the inside of the case if it was gritty/dirty. Even with that, the interference fit of the seal would have pushed that towards the bearings. DO be mindful though of the abrasive grit that falls off the ScotchBrite pad.....that can cause damage if not cleaned up.....much like sand.

Kevin

 

[numnutz6383]

I just realized that I did measure them, when You guys first recommended replacing them. Mine were 20x12x4. I just ordered a few to try from the supplier @Cantdog uses. Interested to see if they'll match.

I have a sneaky suspicion I didn't clean that abrasive grit out after cleaning the discoloration from the case, at least I don't recall doing it. That's what I get for trying to do things in a hurry. I'm hoping it was minimal and won't necessarily cause too quick of a bearing failure. I oiled the bearings pretty heavily, for what that's worth.

 

[Real1shepherd]

Bummer. Yeah, should have cut/stuffed a small piece of a paper towel at least between the bearing and the shaft surface to catch the stuff. Can't really give good tutorials on shop methods with a keyboard. Rich Dougan is finding that out on YouTube.

At best, it will cause minimal bearing damage and you'll have yrs of service life anyway.

Kevin

 

[numnutz6383]

Or you guys will be teaching me how to do a bottom end in due time

 

[numnutz6383]

Now that the seals are in I can start putting it altogether. If you think I had a lot of question before, hold onto your seats.

To start, can you guys give me a rough idea how to reinstall the flywheel and the clutch? They're tapered shafts, so obviously I need to make sure the orientation is correct but what's the actually method of getting the flywheel/clutch back on? Similar to seals, a deep socket and gentle hammering?

I wanted to clean the clutch shoes, there is a bunch of gunk behind the springs that's not coming off with soaking in Simple Green (red arrows). I was able to pull the shoes apart with just brute hand strength, so I can probably get them off that way, but I'm more worried about getting it back together. What's the method to take this apart and put it together once cleaned?The woodruff key from the clutch side shaft looks like it has been partially sheared? Keyway looks intact. Does this warrant replacing it?


The case/cylinder mating surface had some residual gasket material that wasn't coming off with brake cleaner or CRC gasket remover and plastic razor, so I stepped up to Scotch-Brite pad (I can't any ridges with my fingernails for what it's worth). But then stopped out of fear I'm fudging something up. Does the mating surface need more cleaning up? With what?


I know Kevin said it makes it easier for him to have all the questions together so to reiterate:

1)How to reinstall the flywheel and the clutch back on the shaft?
2)What's the method to take the clutch shoe/spring assembly apart and put it together once cleaned?
3)Does the case/cylinder mating surface need more cleaning up and with what?
4)Does the woodruff key need to be replaced due to being mildly sheared?

 

[Cantdog]

(1)The clutch and flywheel are on keyed tapers so just make sure the tapers are clean and just reassemble using the nuts to draw them on. The flywheel nut is right hand thread and the clutch left hand so they will tighten against each other.....no need to hold the crank.
(2) I would recomend you NOT remove the clutch spring for the exact reason you stated. The two shoe clutches are much more difficult than the three shoe clutches are......and they are a PITA too. I turned a wooden cone shaped "expander" to do the three shoe clutches. Clamp the clutch spyder to the cone and simply roll the spring down into place.
(3/4) They are fine.....just make sure there are no burrs on the edges/ends of the key........case is as clean as you can get it without re-machining the deck.

Keep in mind this is not a spacecraft......it's a chainsaw....that said it's nice to see someone do as good a job as you're doing to restore a vintage saw. 80% of the guys on here would not be nearly as thorough.....15% would not even blow the saw dust off it to rebuild.......

 

[Real1shepherd]

Now that the seals are in I can start putting it altogether. If you think I had a lot of question before, hold onto your seats.

To start, can you guys give me a rough idea how to reinstall the flywheel and the clutch? They're tapered shafts, so obviously I need to make sure the orientation is correct but what's the actually method of getting the flywheel/clutch back on? Similar to seals, a deep socket and gentle hammering?

I wanted to clean the clutch shoes, there is a bunch of gunk behind the springs that's not coming off with soaking in Simple Green (red arrows). I was able to pull the shoes apart with just brute hand strength, so I can probably get them off that way, but I'm more worried about getting it back together. What's the method to take this apart and put it together once cleaned?View attachment 1047545The woodruff key from the clutch side shaft looks like it has been partially sheared? Keyway looks intact. Does this warrant replacing it?
View attachment 1047548

The case/cylinder mating surface had some residual gasket material that wasn't coming off with brake cleaner or CRC gasket remover and plastic razor, so I stepped up to Scotch-Brite pad (I can't any ridges with my fingernails for what it's worth). But then stopped out of fear I'm fudging something up. Does the mating surface need more cleaning up? With what?
View attachment 1047550

I know Kevin said it makes it easier for him to have all the questions together so to reiterate:

1)How to reinstall the flywheel and the clutch back on the shaft?
2)What's the method to take the clutch shoe/spring assembly apart and put it together once cleaned?
3)Does the case/cylinder mating surface need more cleaning up and with what?
4)Does the woodruff key need to be replaced due to being mildly sheared?

1)Use a new key unless the old is spotless, yours is not. Examine the keyway on the shaft to make sure there is no damage(most likely not, since the shaft is usually hardened).

2) The idea here is not to take those springs apart unless you have to. Manipulate rather than take apart. Next time, use a USC and solvent to clean things like that. Manipulate...be inventive....watch a vid maybe? If you already took the springs apart, forcing them back together should be done with toothless-tipped tools. Little known except to shops that do this on expensive machinery...scarring springs that are normally under tension are like scarring Plexiglas....it can break later on. They make spring tools that tuck into the coils on either side and then pull the ends together....that's the correct way, but they aren't cheap unless the Chinese have copied an existing design.

3) Those ridges on the mating surface are what help with your sealing. As Robin said, you're clean enough most likely. I would probably keep going with a solvent on a rag until I got off more....you may have to try a few like MEK or lacquer thinner until you find one strong enough. Don't sand or similar to lose those ridges....it's not that important. Mag is incredibly easy to scratch....just be wary.

4) Yes, see #1! Also, examine the key track inside your flywheel for flaws that could cause early key failure.

I'd say more like 25% would not blow the grime off for a rebuild. And selling dirty saws....upward of 75%. Sure, it's just a chainsaw, but good shop methods put you way ahead of the curve, and a pleasure to buy saws from(or trade with).

Kevin

 

[numnutz6383]

1)Use a new key unless the old is spotless, yours is not. Examine the keyway on the shaft to make sure there is no damage(most likely not, since the shaft is usually hardened).

2) The idea here is not to take those springs apart unless you have to. Manipulate rather than take apart. Next time, use a USC and solvent to clean things like that. Manipulate...be inventive....watch a vid maybe? If you already took the springs apart, forcing them back together should be done with toothless-tipped tools. Little known except to shops that do this on expensive machinery...scarring springs that are normally under tension are like scarring Plexiglas....it can break later on. They make spring tools that tuck into the coils on either side and then pull the ends together....that's the correct way, but they aren't cheap unless the Chinese have copied an existing design.

3) Those ridges on the mating surface are what help with your sealing. As Robin said, you're clean enough most likely. I would probably keep going with a solvent on a rag until I got off more....you may have to try a few like MEK or lacquer thinner until you find one strong enough. Don't sand or similar to lose those ridges....it's not that important. Mag is incredibly easy to scratch....just be wary.

4) Yes, see #1! Also, examine the key track inside your flywheel for flaws that could cause early key failure.

I'd say more like 25% would not blow the grime off for a rebuild. And selling dirty saws....upward of 75%. Sure, it's just a chainsaw, but good shop methods put you way ahead of the curve, and a pleasure to buy saws from(or trade with).

Kevin

I tried looking for videos on YT for clutch disassembly, but didn't come across much. Plenty of videos on how to remove them, but not too much for disassemble and putting together. I never removed the springs, just pushed the shoes out to expose some of the surfaces behind them, I guess I could figure out a way to keep them pushed out and then clean. Moot point anyways, I'm going to try the clutch in my ultrasonic. I don't want to have another USC cleaning fiasco like I did with the flywheel and cause it to rust, do you guys have a preferred USC cleaning solution for clutches?

I'll buy some woodruff keys to replace mine, HF good enough quality for this?

 

[Real1shepherd]

I tried looking for videos on YT for clutch disassembly, but didn't come across much. Plenty of videos on how to remove them, but not too much for disassemble and putting together. I never removed the springs, just pushed the shoes out to expose some of the surfaces behind them, I guess I could figure out a way to keep them pushed out and then clean. Moot point anyways, I'm going to try the clutch in my ultrasonic. I don't want to have another USC cleaning fiasco like I did with the flywheel and cause it to rust, do you guys have a preferred USC cleaning solution for clutches?

I'll buy some woodruff keys to replace mine, HF good enough quality for this?

Nothing is bonded in that, so most cleaning solutions should be OK....remind me what you used on the flywheel? Not really necessary to uber-clean the clutch assembly. You're just trying to get the grit/grease out, possibly excess grease from the drum bearing.

I'd be reluctant to buy keys @HF. A good trusted local farm store should have a selection. McMaster-Carr online.

Kevin

 

[numnutz6383]

Probably a dump question, but a small aside, can anyone tell me what the numbers on the flywheel indicate? Out of curiosity I looked on eBay for Jred 451 flywheel and saw a few results came up, but with slightly different numbers.

 

[Maintenance supervisor]

Working on cleaning up a 625II for a 52mm p/c.

 

[Real1shepherd]

Probably a dump question, but a small aside, can anyone tell me what the numbers on the flywheel indicate? Out of curiosity I looked on eBay for Jred 451 flywheel and saw a few results came up, but with slightly different numbers.

View attachment 1048298

Have no idea....some sort of production run # of the flywheel I suspect. Just make sure that in the entire run of 451's, they didn't change the configuration of the flywheel/coil arrangement.

Kevin

 

[mogulmasher]

Mine says "K1" where yours has "L5". Rest of numbers are the same.