You probably want to be directing your ire at the ESA, not the EPA. The effects are much more direct and immediate. To be fair, though, both can be pains in the ass.
Just came across this...
- Thread starter huskyman1
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bitzer
******** Timber Expert
Your intentions were there huskyman. I think. The sweatshirt is confusing at best though. You should get the badass mother ****** one instead. That one is to the point and pretty much sums it all up.
I am trying to get Rudedog to share his knowledge of what conspiracy he knows of. But he hasn't enlightened us. I object to the two of them bringing their political division making into this forum. It gets tiresome and the L&f forum was one of the places fairly free of it.
Darn, does that mean I have to scrape my "I Like Ike" sticker off my saw?
WHAAAT that's crazy talk
SliverPicker
ArboristSite Guru
The text on the back doesn't even make any sense. Next subject.
KYLogger
Professional Tree Assassin
Annnnnddddddddddddddddd....................we're done....................
You're right. It was a stupid comment.
treeslayer2003
Addicted to ArboristSite
i think what rude dog was tryin to say is that he thinks the epa has made it hard on logging. IDK about if it was the epa but there sure are more laws now than it used to be. some are down right silly and some were warranted.
Logging is alive on this side of the bay Randy and i bet some on your side. you are right in that it is tougher now than it was 25 years ago, how ever here at least it was state and local government that passed those laws.
now every body put a smile back on.........those of us with fewer teefs can just do the closed lip grin
Logging is alive on this side of the bay Randy and i bet some on your side. you are right in that it is tougher now than it was 25 years ago, how ever here at least it was state and local government that passed those laws.
now every body put a smile back on.........those of us with fewer teefs can just do the closed lip grin
Actually, there was a law suit to try to make the EPA declare silvicultural activities--timber harvest a source of pollution to water. It went to the Supreme Court. I seem to recall that the plaintiffs backed down, and the EPA will continue to NOT require permits for road runoff. Note the NOT. The EPA might be affecting firewood burners, but that's not logging.
We have state forest practices act (law) and the Northwest Forest Plan on the federal land. The people who are continuing to log have adapted. The EPA is not involved in either. The Endangered Species Act or ESA has more affect on timber management.
Yup, pretty poor attempt there....
We have state forest practices act (law) and the Northwest Forest Plan on the federal land. The people who are continuing to log have adapted. The EPA is not involved in either. The Endangered Species Act or ESA has more affect on timber management.
Yup, pretty poor attempt there....
You're right. I do apologize.
KenJax Tree
Terraphobic
No need to apologize, this is the internet you're supposed to act tough
Rudedog...your statement wasn't stupid, just ill informed. A lot of people think EPA runs everything. They sure seem to.
EPA doesn't directly effect forest practices. Not yet anyway. I'm sure they'd like to. And I'm sure one day they'll get their foot in the door. Maybe they'll spend all their time fighting with all the other agencies that already have regulatory power over logging. A lot of that goes on.
There are clouds on the horizon though.
There's already one state agency in California that doesn't directly oversee forest practices but has still had a disastrous effect on logging...the California Air Resources Board. CARB has mandated changing to low emission diesel engines and that means that anyone with diesel powered equipment is forced to comply. The costs to loggers is, and will continue to be, enormous. In a business where profit margins vary from small to smaller it's just another obstacle to try to overcome. Some do. Some don't.
There are programs available, through state agencies, to help offset the costs but it's still tax money that's paying for it so one way or another the logger is spending the bucks to stay in compliance.
There are already CARB "smoke cops" in California who set up roadside inspections for truckers and their sole job is to check for the opacity of diesel exhaust smoke and to determine particulate matter emission. They can also inspect your engine and exhaust system to determine if it's been tampered with. The fines they can levy are enormous.
California, rightly or wrongly, has long set the standard for air quality control. Other states watch what we do and often establish practices based on ours. That's not always a good idea but it happens. A lot of people resent California. I can understand why.
I'm trying real hard here not to let this post stray over into politics but once a government agency is set up, state or federal, it seems to be with us forever. If and when your state starts to follow our lead get ready to shell out some big bucks. Continuously.
EPA doesn't directly effect forest practices. Not yet anyway. I'm sure they'd like to. And I'm sure one day they'll get their foot in the door. Maybe they'll spend all their time fighting with all the other agencies that already have regulatory power over logging. A lot of that goes on.
There are clouds on the horizon though.
There's already one state agency in California that doesn't directly oversee forest practices but has still had a disastrous effect on logging...the California Air Resources Board. CARB has mandated changing to low emission diesel engines and that means that anyone with diesel powered equipment is forced to comply. The costs to loggers is, and will continue to be, enormous. In a business where profit margins vary from small to smaller it's just another obstacle to try to overcome. Some do. Some don't.
There are programs available, through state agencies, to help offset the costs but it's still tax money that's paying for it so one way or another the logger is spending the bucks to stay in compliance.
There are already CARB "smoke cops" in California who set up roadside inspections for truckers and their sole job is to check for the opacity of diesel exhaust smoke and to determine particulate matter emission. They can also inspect your engine and exhaust system to determine if it's been tampered with. The fines they can levy are enormous.
California, rightly or wrongly, has long set the standard for air quality control. Other states watch what we do and often establish practices based on ours. That's not always a good idea but it happens. A lot of people resent California. I can understand why.
I'm trying real hard here not to let this post stray over into politics but once a government agency is set up, state or federal, it seems to be with us forever. If and when your state starts to follow our lead get ready to shell out some big bucks. Continuously.
treeslayer2003
Addicted to ArboristSite
maybe mah brain is foggy but Ms. P and Nate what does ESA stand for?
and your right, endangered species act has affected us hard. non existant critters have cost me work.
and your right, endangered species act has affected us hard. non existant critters have cost me work.
treeslayer2003
Addicted to ArboristSite
dang California............lol, i'm kidding of course but we have adopted alot of what was started there...............water hurts us worse though.
Bob what about guys running older equipment? i mean off road [skidders] seems i herd some thing about this.
The Endangered Species Act or ESA
treeslayer2003
Addicted to ArboristSite
ah, yes you are right there..................you need an eagle? they cheap........
That's okay, say anything you want to about California. It's probably true. We don't just lead the nation in clean air regulation, we also lead in complete and utter goofiness on the part of our elected leaders.
I haven't looked closely at the latest regulations on diesels. They're confusing and they change almost constantly. There have been extensions, exceptions, exceptions to the extensions, deadlines, extensions of the deadlines, rescinding of the deadlines, and frequent revisions to every rule and proposal they've ever made.
I sold off the last of my big yellow machinery a while back and I did it with a sigh of relief. I still talk to the guys I worked with and the whole thing is driving them nuts.
