Just came across this...

[madhatte]

It bothers me quite a lot that CARB has the pull to essentially dictate policy in other states. I know they rule Cali with an iron fist, but the downhill roll into other states is steady and insidious. Look no further than those stupid vapor-proof nozzles on gas cans or the ridiculous concept of a "Partial-Zero Emissions Vehicle" to see what I mean. Still, the larger and more immediate impact to my work is ESA; we just got THREE new species listed on our property in the last year and the USFWS have yet to give us clear guidance on how they want us to change our practices to accommodate this fact. We're in a legal limbo where screw-ups could mean jail time, but there's no clear consensus on what exactly constitutes a "screw-up". Especially during fire season, this makes me nervous as hell. I don't want to lead my crew into trouble, but how can I avoid it if I don't know the rules?

 

[BeatCJ]

I know the EPA is having a significant effect on the work rigs I drive everyday. The regen cycle for the diesel particulate filters is causing significant issues with engine oil contamination.

And to use that as a segue, I suspect saw emissions will come under closer scrutiny. OTOH, two stroke boat motors stink way less than they used to.

 

[treeslayer2003]

i expect you folks have the waterway restrictions like we do..........hard to believe for me that some states don't have any at all......NY is much more laxed than here ........you wouldn't think that would be the case.

 

[treeslayer2003]

Nate, do they verify the critter is there or do they just say its on the map? i can tell you the maps here are frequently wrong, but that takes a visit from the state big wheels to clear.......of course they take they sweet time.

 

[Gologit]

We're in a legal limbo where screw-ups could mean jail time, but there's no clear consensus on what exactly constitutes a "screw-up". Especially during fire season, this makes me nervous as hell. I don't want to lead my crew into trouble, but how can I avoid it if I don't know the rules?

Exactly right. If I know what the rules are I can usually figure out how to stay in compliance. But if the agencies involved can't give me clear guidelines, or if they offer advice that contradicts the advice of another agency it leaves me squarely in the cross hairs.
Among certain of my redneck brethren the regulatory nightmare creates an attitude of "screw it, I'm gonna do what I want to do, what I think is right, what kept me out of trouble last time, and hope I don't get caught". Except that, eventually, you will get caught.

 

[madhatte]

Nate, do they verify the critter is there or do they just say its on the map? i can tell you the maps here are frequently wrong, but that takes a visit from the state big wheels to clear.......of course they take they sweet time.

Worse. They are actively releasing captive-bred critters, and then tracking them through a variety of methods... which means that not only are the maps always behind, but the critters are a moving target. It makes planning pretty difficult, but more than that, we have to sort of always be braced for the next change. Sometimes we can see it coming. Lots of times we can't. I will say this, though -- our local F&W guys are great to work with. It's the state and fed folks that are a hassle.

Among certain of my redneck brethren the regulatory nightmare creates an attitude of "screw it, I'm gonna do what I want to do, what I think is right, what kept me out of trouble last time, and hope I don't get caught". Except that, eventually, you will get caught.

I hate it when I get stuck working with one of those yahoos. They don't understand what's at stake and put the whole organization at risk. Fortunately, right now the battle is over not forested but rather prairie land, so I can keep my head down most of the time... except, of course, during fire season. You know how fire politics get.

 

[hammerlogging]

yeah, sweatshirt pretty nuch says "i'm not a logger, but if I was, I wouldn't be a professional"

oh well

 

[slowp]

I was trying to lay out sales in the state of Jefferson while the experts were trying to come up with buffering for the "rare" Del Norte salamander, which seemed to be located under any rock you'd turn over. They had to be buffered, even though they were found in rock pits and along road shoulders. We laid out the units and buffered the salamander spots, which were many. Then the buffering requirement changed, we had to double it. We did. Then it changed again and at that point, we told the wildlife folks to go out and redo the buffers. They were huffy. They were above having to use marking paint. They were afraid of the paint. They wore coveralls and respirators and finally did redo the buffers.

That really slows things down--redoing buffers. It was also said that the Del Norte salamander expert basically had an anti-logging agenda, which is why the requirements kept changing.

 

[slowp]

Oh, Humptulips posted a blasphemic piece on the mostly treehugger site. It was a write up referencing a study done by some fish people in Oregon, which found that young fish actually like sunlit areas of streams. One of the replies he got, from somebody who has a degree in English and decided to go back to school and get a masters in forestry or ecology--no experience except working on trails, says the writer's knowledge is doubtful because he stated he did not know what one of the acronyms thrown at him stood for.

That's part of the problem with the Forest Service. It has folks in high places who are like the former English major.

 

[madhatte]

That really slows things down--redoing buffers.

Boy howdy. Waiting on 3 sales right now, tho I just got the green light on the two toughest ones to negotiate.

Another insta-roadblock, which is just as tough to fight but less often talked about, is the Antiquities Act. Any human activity over 50 years old can be declared "Historic" under this act, so any contract has to include language that says "STOP EVERYTHING IMMEDIATELY IF YOU FIND OLD STUFF". Ironically, I had an area declared off-limits due to an old railroad grade and springboard-notched stumps. That's right; logging prevented due to evidence of past logging. No problem, though, in that case -- the spot was otherwise protected due to wetland buffers.

 

[Gologit]

One of the replies he got, from somebody who has a degree in English and decided to go back to school and get a masters in forestry or ecology--

Kim Brown?

 

[2dogs]

I am waiting for the ESA ball to drop on the Monarch butterfly. Their numbers have dropped, probably due to Roundup, but the local effect will be on Eucalyptus. The Monarchs use the eucs here and because of that there has been a push to protect the trees. Large eucs are called "old growth" by the tree huggers and the media. I suspect within two years all eucs will be protected and as any firefighter knows they are a messy tree that drops oily leaves. Eucs are a significant fire hazard.

 

[madhatte]

I bet you're right.

*shudder*

 

[Gologit]

Boy howdy. Waiting on 3 sales right now, tho I just got the green light on the two toughest ones to negotiate.

Another insta-roadblock, which is just as tough to fight but less often talked about, is the Antiquities Act. Any human activity over 50 years old can be declared "Historic" under this act, so any contract has to include language that says "STOP EVERYTHING IMMEDIATELY IF YOU FIND OLD STUFF". Ironically, I had an area declared off-limits due to an old railroad grade and springboard-notched stumps. That's right; logging prevented due to evidence of past logging. No problem, though, in that case -- the spot was otherwise protected due to wetland buffers.

I'm laughing with you, really I am. The Sierras are filled with old gold mining detritus and anything can and will be declared an arch site. A hole in the ground with a broken shovel qualifies. Dump sites qualify.

 

[madhatte]

I'm laughing with you, really I am.

It's enough to make me question my sanity working in this business.

 

[treeslayer2003]

jeez there is old human activity every where on this side.......i sure they don't do that here.

Ms. P we allegedly have some salamander that don't live any where else.........see they put delmarva on the front of any name to make it different. like the delmarva fox squirrel.......obviously different than a fox squirrel on the other side of the bay.

i wonder just what round up has done............

 

[madhatte]

jeez there is old human activity every where on this side.......i sure they don't do that here.

Thing is, they could, if they got it into their heads that they wanted to. It's best to just work until somebody comes along and says "stop!"

 

[Gologit]

What you really don't want to find are old grave sites, undocumented pioneer cemeteries, or any kind of human remains. I've run across all of these things at one time or another and I reported them. Seemed like the right thing to do. You do it reluctantly because you know what happens next but you do it.
Logging, and every other form of "invasive activity", comes to a screeching halt. Immediately. Total shutdown until seventy three different kinds of 'ologists get through poking and prodding and cataloging and arguing among themselves.
Really screws up production.

 

[slowp]

Logging on 4 to 6 feet of snow. We "foresters" still were told to suspend operations and put the errant loggers in breach of contract if even a limb fell on a suspected archy site. Prior to that, we had a large Come To Jesus meeting with purchasers and operators. Not all archy sites had been authenticated, so in order to get the fire salvage out in a timely manner, such dire measures had to be agreed to or else law suits and injunctions might have occurred. I was relieved that the loggers complied. A breach is a lot of paperwork and phone calls and meetings.

 

[treeslayer2003]

i'm surprised about all the human activity sites being a big deal for y'all.........i'v seen plenty of grave yards in the middle of wood lots. some in the 1600s, some there is no hope of reading. now indian sites abound as well......no one cares. most of those have long been pilaged.
i give the graves a wide birth.....just seems right to leave them alone, they don't bother me. i have not found any remains........and don't want to. one of the foresters found some a few years ago, turned out to be a missing person/murder victom.