Just joined- thought I'd share a couple Pics...

[belgian]

I didn't realise I was opening a can of worms here I will not going into a debate of Europe is better than the US or vice versa, I hate politics, so that's why I don't post much in Off Topic. If you don't like to live in Europe, fine with me. But I agree with you that we have too many regulations over here that limit one's personal freedom wayyyy too much to my liking. I like also several conservative values you americans still cherish such as the right to possess arms, etc.

But my comments were purely based on safety. You simply don't mess with safety and always should take reasonable precautions when operating tools for not getting hurt. Sometimes people have to be protected against their own stupidity, while manufacterers spend fortunes on research to make things safer and better. I believe that's a good thing.

This is where I part with the Safety Harpies. It's his saw, for his personal use to be operated on his property. He's aware that it's a dangerous thing to use, especially in it's current configuration. He is solely and totally responsible for the results of him using it

How about his responsibility against his family or society ? If he gets hurt operating that "thing", does he expect society to pay for his health care, or supporting his family ?. With the social security system we have in europe, the guy will probably get the best medical treatment if he gets injured at a relatively small cost to him, but a huge cost to society. In a sorta way I would have to pay for his stupidity. How about that ?

I just hope that he will not let his children use that thing.

Be wise, and safe.

 

[belgian]

Do you think that this unit can be made safe or do you think it really should be thrown out?

This saw can of course be made safer by adding some safety shrouds to it. Throwing it out is of course an overstatement, I just couldn't believe someone wants to use it in its current state.

Also can you weigh in on the Chainsaw verses a properly guarded Cordwood saw issue ?

I use chainsaws for my firewood, but lots of people here use a cordwood saw, especially in area's where pine wood is very popular. Personally, I think a chainsaw is much more versatile in use than a cordwood saw. A lot depends on the amount of wood you have to cut of course.


PS. I wish to add that my comments were specifically addressed to the saw of monkeyman13. The one from Kellog looks a lot better, but still....)

 

[Haywire Haywood]

How about his responsibility against his family or society ?

Belgian, I hope you know that my comments weren't aimed at you, but rather at the system. I lived in Europe for 4 years and liked it a lot over there.

Another reason why socialism isn't a good thing... Everyone pays for the mistakes of the few instead of the few paying for their own or suffering the consequences of their actions. Now if he kills himself and leaves his family without income, it would be a sad situation but it's not society's responsibility to take care of his family, it's his. I hope he has insurance to include health, life, and disability. This is why you purchase it. If you are healthy and take no risks (boring) then you don't use it and your premiums go to cover the costs of those that do. If you are unhealthy and are a risk taker, then you do use it. This is why health insurance costs more for smokers and drinkers and car insurance costs more if you commute a long way or live in a big city, it's a higher risk. They just haven't gotten around to adding "chainsaw/buzzsaw user" to their questionnaire yet. It will come tho, don't worry. :biggrinbounce2:

but to get back on topic..

Nice saw, looks dangerous, I'd rather use my chainsaw. Be careful and be sure to pay your health, disability and life insurance premiums on time.

Ian

 

[kellog]

Reply to Belgian

Belgian, you are right, without a doubt, a chainsaw is far more versatile than a cordwood saw. My question was more one of safety.

Do you have any thoughts on which might be safer and why? If not that's fine but being as you are from Europe I was hoping to get a different perspective on the safety issue. Also you said there are many cordwood saws in use near you.

There are very few cordwood saws in use in my area. Likely the versatility issue plays a great role as well as perceived safety.

 

[belgian]

Belgian, I hope you know that my comments weren't aimed at you, but rather at the system. I lived in Europe for 4 years and liked it a lot over there.

Ian

Hey Ian, no problem here.
Every system has its pro and cons, I guess. I like our social security system, but not the massive abuse of it.

Insurance is fine, although I hope I will never have need for using it. No money can compensate for lost limbs or handicaps.

jfyi. I showed the pics of monkeymans13 saw to our safety engineer in our plant today. I will spare you his comments.., LOL. :stupid: :jester: :monkey:

 

[infomet]

Kellog, good answer...full of info.
I was asking about the shiny bar sticking up vertically. It looks like it might be part of the tensioner but it's bolted in place. Maybe you tighten the bolt to hold the tensioner in place?? More pics would be great.

OK on the speed. I'm not arguing here and I'd have to look up the equations to make the calculations, but I'm pretty sure it's easy to overspeed a large blade because the centrifugal forces get large fast as the speed goes up. If someone spun up a big blade with no load, things could get nasty. Monkeyman's rig looks like he is running very little reduction, unless there's a gearhead on his engine.

Monkeyman, jump in and let us know about this.

It's great to hear 6 HP can do the job. Yes, that's more than chaiinsaw power, if you are winding up to 3600 rpm or so. I thought of running my flywheel on a separate jackshaft, so I could keep it at engine speed...to store a lot more energy. I thought of either a double sheave on the motor, one to the saw and one to the flywheel, or a double large sheave on the jackshaft with the second groove driving a jackshaft carrying the flywheel.
Of course we have to watch speed of the flywheel for the same reason as we watch blade speed. I expect this decision would be based upon
what components were found lying around the basement at the time.

I have seen quite a few old buzz saws with original flywheels on the other end of the saw arbor. Usually about a foot in diameter.

 

[infomet]

Well, I thought Belgian must have been talking about Monkeyman's saw. I think Kellog's is as safe as a chainsaw. If you keep both feet on the ground and both hands on the log, it shoud be hard to go wrong.

Hey Belgian, how did your English get so good? You aren't one of those KGB guys are you?

BTW, I love Brussels beer AND waffles in Brugge! Blutwurst you can keep.

 

[belgian]

Belgian, you are right, without a doubt, a chainsaw is far more versatile than a cordwood saw. My question was more one of safety.

Do you have any thoughts on which might be safer and why? If not that's fine but being as you are from Europe I was hoping to get a different perspective on the safety issue. Also you said there are many cordwood saws in use near you.

There are very few cordwood saws in use in my area. Likely the versatility issue plays a great role as well as perceived safety.

Kellog, I think it's very good of you to consider the safety aspect. Most of the cordwood saws I see here have the blade totally guarded. The blade has a rotating blade cover, that lifts automatically when you push the wood holding table forward. A typical saw is shown below

I think the safety standard of modern cordsaws today make it a more safer tool than a chainsaw, but to be honoust, I don't talk out of experience here.
good luck.

 

[belgian]

Hey Belgian, how did your English get so good? You aren't one of those KGB guys are you?

Shoot, now everybody knows....
Let me put it this way : english is a very easy language ...compared to french or german.

BTW, I love Brussels beer AND waffles in Brugge! Blutwurst you can keep.

Same here. See, not everything is bad in europe :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[kellog]

Reply to Infomet

Infomet, The shiny perforated hollow square tube is part of the belt tensioner system. Below is a picture (although not a good one) of the tensioner system. The black bar pivots behind the belt and has the roller mounted to it. The perforated tube has a slot running from the bottom almost to the top. The bolt at the top is the pivot for the perf. tube. There is a large thumb screw to lock it in place. Sorry for the poor explaination. There is a raging nor'easter going on here (projected 15" of snow) so I won't go out and take a better picture right now.

As far as a flywheel is concerned I personally would not bother. It is not needed if the blade is sharp and running at rated speed. Mine works perfect without it. But knock yourself out if you want to.

I don't think my saw is as safe as a chainsaw yet but when I add the new features I believe it will be safer despite no brake. These features include a cover for the open section of the blade that moves with the table, a foot treadle that will have to be actuated to start moving the table in, and a spring load on the table to the outward position. Should have these done this spring.

 

[kellog]

Reply to Belgian

Belgian, thanks for the picture. That's a pretty slick looking unit. Looks pretty safe too.

I'm a bit of a stickler for safety as I have seen too many people get hurt and mainly with chainsaws, wood splitters and table saws. I guess that comes with age. I have the upmost respect for these pieces of equipment. If you spend a little time thinking about them, most Safety features are easy to put on equipment and do not hurt the function.

I didn't mention it in other threads but I built a little safety feature into my log splitter to prevent the most often occurring injury, pinched fingers. The wedge is spring loaded forward so that if you have your finger poorly placed it will get pinched by the spring force (20-30 lbs or should I say 10 to 15 kg). This hurts and makes you pull your finger out before the full splitting force is applied and takes the finger off. You have to be quick though.

 

[infomet]

Newtons.

1 lbf=4.448216 N

 

[kellog]

Reply to infomet

Infomet, OK you're right. Should have used newtons.

You got me thinking earlier about over-speeding a blade and having it come apart. The surface speed increases with the radius but the centrifugal forces increase with the square of the radius I believe.

So I looked in the Machinery Handbook (1988 edition). They have a table of circular saw blade speeds based on diameter. It shows 1200 RPM for a 30" blade used for wood so I assume it won't overstress the blade at all to run at this speed. Thanks for bringing it up though.

There was also good info in there about flywheels so you might want to look at that if you are going to put a flywheel on your machine.

 

[belgian]

I don't think my saw is as safe as a chainsaw yet but when I add the new features I believe it will be safer despite no brake. These features include a cover for the open section of the blade that moves with the table, a foot treadle that will have to be actuated to start moving the table in, and a spring load on the table to the outward position. Should have these done this spring.

I think that will do it

 

[oakman]

monkeyman
your rig is an accident waiting to happen. a 30'' blade spinning at 3600 rpm's has a rim speed of over 28,200 sfpm, or roughly 350 miles per hour. wobble and oscillation are serious concerns on an oversped blade. cracks can develop, and go unnoticed. large diameter blades are supposed to be tensioned to run at the proper speed. 1000rpms should be max for that blade, and it should be inspected for cracks. if you are standing directly in front of it and it comes apart, it will slice you in half like a Katana through a watermelon. do yourself a favor and slow it down, and by all means stand off to the left.

 

[kellog]

Reply to infomet

Infomet, I looked up the Dolmar cordwood saw that Belgian sent and found the following info on a website.

Sägeblatt Chromstahl
Leistung 7,0 kW
Schnitttiefe ca. 260 mm
Drehzahl 1400 U/min
Sägeblattdurchm. 700/30mm

I think this means it has a chrome steel blade, a 7 kilowatt motor (around 9 hp!!), max cutting depth 260 mm (10.23"), 1400 RPM speed and blade diameter 700 mm (27.5").

Belgian, please make sure I didn't screw up.

Looks like we are in the ball park except for the horsepower.

 

[belgian]

Infomet, I looked up the Dolmar cordwood saw that Belgian sent and found the following info on a website.

Sägeblatt Chromstahl
Leistung 7,0 kW
Schnitttiefe ca. 260 mm
Drehzahl 1400 U/min
Sägeblattdurchm. 700/30mm

I think this means it has a chrome steel blade, a 7 kilowatt motor (around 9 hp!!), max cutting depth 260 mm (10.23"), 1400 RPM speed and blade diameter 700 mm (27.5").

Belgian, please make sure I didn't screw up.

Looks like we are in the ball park except for the horsepower.

Kellog,

your translation is correct. The saw comes standard with a chrome steel blade(easier to sharpen), but as an option, you can have a blade with carbide tips (lasts longer, but difficult to sharpen, and more dangerous if you hit nails, etc.) I also looked up the user manual for you ; The chrome steel blade allows for up to 3000 rpm, the carbide tip blade up to 2700 rpm max.

please note that I just picked the dolmar saw as an example. there are many other manufacterers in europe building such saws. A quick search learned that driving power for most models with a 700 mm blade vary from min. 5,5 up to 8 kW max.

Since you are safety concerned, the good part of these tilting saws is that you need to operate the tilting wood table with two hands towards the blade. That's just my 02 cts of course.

 

[kellog]

Reply to Belgian

Belgian,

thanks for all the hard work and helping out. Your info was great.

I think we have beat this issue to death and now it is time to go build some good, safe cordwood saws.

 

[infomet]

While we discuss the relative merits of the buzz, or cordwood, saw, rememner that they were here for a century or so before chainsaws showed up. I picked a few links in case someone wants to see more. I occasionally see a Dearborn rig, which I want to get for my 8N before I'm too old to run it.

Right now I'm getting a homemade one I bought at an auction hooked up. I'll get a picture in a day or two.

http://www.vermontmowers.com/Woodsman250.html

http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/D/Robert.J.Dougherty-1/nebraska/page10.html

http://crosscutsaw.com/15.html

http://www.americanartifacts.com/smma/dragsaw/ds23.gif

http://www.americanartifacts.com/smma/dragsaw/ds29.gif

http://www.americanartifacts.com/smma/dragsaw/ds26.gif

http://www.americanartifacts.com/smma/dragsaw/ds27.gif

http://www.americanartifacts.com/smma/dragsaw/ds28.gif

http://www.geocities.com/picketfence/garden/4972/sawmill1.html

http://www.tractorbynet.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/1550

http://cgi.ebay.com/Ford-Dearborn-C...mZ270097898188QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

As usual, there are more out there if you are willing to run the search. If you know of good sharpening/setting directions, I'd like to see them.

 

[A. Stanton]

Does the guard on that machine ever get in your way?