Metals406
Granfodder Runningsaw
Can you do a "running bowline" by just tying a small bowline, and feeding a loop through? Looks like the same concept?
P.S. It's been many years since the Cub Scouts.
Knot question
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Can you do a "running bowline" by just tying a small bowline, and feeding a loop through? Looks like the same concept?
P.S. It's been many years since the Cub Scouts.
tree md
Addicted to ArboristSite
Can you do a "running bowline" by just tying a small bowline, and feeding a loop through? Looks like the same concept?
P.S. It's been many years since the Cub Scouts.
Here's how I was taught:
Working end of rope = Tree
Running end of rope = Limb
With the working end (tree) make a 6 (or take a bite). Go around the limb (running end or standing part) with the working end, up though the 6, around the tree and back down through the 6. Pull the tree and the two ends running through the 6 to dress. Got that???
Sorry, I can explain it a lot better if I can show you in person.
Metals406
Granfodder Runningsaw
Here's how I was taught:
Working end of rope = Tree
Running end of rope = Limb
With the working end (tree) make a 6 (or take a bite). Go around the limb (running end or standing part) with the working end, up though the 6, around the tree and back down through the 6. Pull the tree and the two ends running through the 6 to dress. Got that???
Sorry, I can explain it a lot better if I can show you in person.
Trying it with my tree (boot) right now!
Metals406
Granfodder Runningsaw
I'm all messed up! From your description all I get is a regular Bowline, and not a Running Bowline.
tree md
Addicted to ArboristSite
I'm all messed up! From your description all I get is a regular Bowline, and not a Running Bowline.
Give me a minute, I've got a rope in a tree now. I'll take some pics.
You guys are not describing advantages to each knot
There are lots of good comments above, but for the most part, no one is pointing out the functional differences between the knots.
Bowline, or running bowline: good, reliable knot that many climbers tie so fast they don't think about it anymore (advantage). Disadvantage: when rigging a pulley, it does not lend itself to finishing the rope at the right length, leaving more slack to the line holding the pulley. Slower to untie than methods below, and it can become difficult to untie if pulled hard enough.
Clove Hitch: Very strong, and simple to tie (advantage). Disadvantage: this knot is NOT designed to take a sideways load, and can unwind off the tree if loaded with a pulley. If preceded by a marl, that problem would be handled, but it still takes up two full turns of rope around the trunk of the tree. That is a problem on a bigger trunk, especially since it's reliability (against side pull and unrolling) declines as the size of the trunk increases.
Timber hitch (my personal favorite): Very strong, and simple to tie. Cannot be made to bind up, no matter how much it is loaded, and it will never unroll off the tree (BIG advantage). Disadvantage: It requires a bit of experience to tie properly, and uses a bit more rope than a running bowline on larger tree trunks. Because it requires rigging correctly, it must be considered less reliable than a running bowline. It's biggest disadvantage is that it is SO simple to tie, most climbers won't trust it to hold (advantage?)
Stilson Hitch (not previously mentioned): this is a very secure hitch that is almost fail-proof, and it can be attached very close to the top of a spar without fear of shaking loose. It will not bind up when heavily loaded. It is much tighter and more secure than any of the above methods, even when they are combined with a marl. It is best used when tying to some log or spar that might be exposed to twisting or stretching in different directions (usually the log being lowered). I prefer it for short, large diameter log sections that might slip out of the other hitches before the "choker" draws tight(advantages). Disadvantage: This takes up a LOT of rope to tie, and it takes a bit more time to tie. Groundmen take forever to untie it when is is used to attach to the log being lowered, because the heavy log is laying on several turns of rope.
There are lots of good comments above, but for the most part, no one is pointing out the functional differences between the knots.
Bowline, or running bowline: good, reliable knot that many climbers tie so fast they don't think about it anymore (advantage). Disadvantage: when rigging a pulley, it does not lend itself to finishing the rope at the right length, leaving more slack to the line holding the pulley. Slower to untie than methods below, and it can become difficult to untie if pulled hard enough.
Clove Hitch: Very strong, and simple to tie (advantage). Disadvantage: this knot is NOT designed to take a sideways load, and can unwind off the tree if loaded with a pulley. If preceded by a marl, that problem would be handled, but it still takes up two full turns of rope around the trunk of the tree. That is a problem on a bigger trunk, especially since it's reliability (against side pull and unrolling) declines as the size of the trunk increases.
Timber hitch (my personal favorite): Very strong, and simple to tie. Cannot be made to bind up, no matter how much it is loaded, and it will never unroll off the tree (BIG advantage). Disadvantage: It requires a bit of experience to tie properly, and uses a bit more rope than a running bowline on larger tree trunks. Because it requires rigging correctly, it must be considered less reliable than a running bowline. It's biggest disadvantage is that it is SO simple to tie, most climbers won't trust it to hold (advantage?)
Stilson Hitch (not previously mentioned): this is a very secure hitch that is almost fail-proof, and it can be attached very close to the top of a spar without fear of shaking loose. It will not bind up when heavily loaded. It is much tighter and more secure than any of the above methods, even when they are combined with a marl. It is best used when tying to some log or spar that might be exposed to twisting or stretching in different directions (usually the log being lowered). I prefer it for short, large diameter log sections that might slip out of the other hitches before the "choker" draws tight(advantages). Disadvantage: This takes up a LOT of rope to tie, and it takes a bit more time to tie. Groundmen take forever to untie it when is is used to attach to the log being lowered, because the heavy log is laying on several turns of rope.
Try this link ISA cd training demo, when the link opens click on CLIMIBING up top then KNOTS in left column advance forward to running bowline and has a great example.
http://www.isa-arbor.com/publications/TreeWorkerSafety/Tree_Worker_Safety_content.html
http://www.isa-arbor.com/publications/TreeWorkerSafety/Tree_Worker_Safety_content.html
Metals406
Granfodder Runningsaw
My suspicions were correct! All a "running bowline" is, is a regular old bowline, with the standing part of the rope fed through the bowline loop.
Nice link Stihl-O-Matic!
I noticed that most of their pulleys in the ISA videos were set with what they are calling a cow hitch, mostly the same thing as a Stilson Hitch.
I noticed that most of their pulleys in the ISA videos were set with what they are calling a cow hitch, mostly the same thing as a Stilson Hitch.
tree md
Addicted to ArboristSite
Sorry, took me a few. I had to eat super and hustle up some batteries.
Here it is. Like pdqdl said though, it's disadvantage is that it's not easy to tie it where there is no slack. I have heard of some tying the knot first and then setting their block to compensate for that disadvantage before but I have always found it easier to just tie a clove hitch and back in up with a half hitch if there is a concearn about slippage or slack. The advantages are that it is a common knot that most climbers can tie upside down in their sleep and you can tie it and run it where you need to and it's easy for the groundman to pull to him and pick apart. Plus you can untie it relatively easy after it has been loaded.
Here it is. Like pdqdl said though, it's disadvantage is that it's not easy to tie it where there is no slack. I have heard of some tying the knot first and then setting their block to compensate for that disadvantage before but I have always found it easier to just tie a clove hitch and back in up with a half hitch if there is a concearn about slippage or slack. The advantages are that it is a common knot that most climbers can tie upside down in their sleep and you can tie it and run it where you need to and it's easy for the groundman to pull to him and pick apart. Plus you can untie it relatively easy after it has been loaded.
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tree md
Addicted to ArboristSite
Doh! I see you already got it. That's me, always a day late and a dollar short!
Metals406
Granfodder Runningsaw
Thanks tree md!!
I also just tried the Stilson Hitch, and it seems waaay better than a timber hitch!
Although, I still like the Timber Hitch backed with a Half Hitch.
I also just tried the Stilson Hitch, and it seems waaay better than a timber hitch!
Although, I still like the Timber Hitch backed with a Half Hitch.
Like I said:
Use it a bit more, especially with a marl in front of it, and you will kick that Stilson to the curb except on very short, fat logs.
Incidentally, I never put five twists in my timber hitches, unless on a huge log. And I often put a "slip" on the backside to facilitate untying it.
Use it a bit more, especially with a marl in front of it, and you will kick that Stilson to the curb except on very short, fat logs.
Incidentally, I never put five twists in my timber hitches, unless on a huge log. And I often put a "slip" on the backside to facilitate untying it.
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Metals406
Granfodder Runningsaw
Can you make a video of you tying this "marl" and "slip"? Piece of firewood would work to tie it on.
I'm really getting into this knot and hitch thing... And I don't even climb! Hahaha LOL
Still good stuff to have under your belt though.
Rftreeman
Addicted to ArboristSite
I usually wrap the rope several times and drive nails through it in to the chunk, works like a charm every time but is a PITA to untie.
just kidding, I use a running bowline most of the time and sometimes I'll take and extra wrap for good measure.
just kidding, I use a running bowline most of the time and sometimes I'll take and extra wrap for good measure.
Can you make a video of you tying this "marl" and "slip"? Piece of firewood would work to tie it on.
I'm really getting into this knot and hitch thing... And I don't even climb! Hahaha LOL
Still good stuff to have under your belt though.
Well...I could. But that would take time & effort. I'll see about that.
The "marl" is just a different name for what YOU posted in a graphic above: some folks call that a "half-hitch". I think on a purely technical basis, "half-hitch" only describes the way the knot is formed, and "marl" defines both the knot and how it is used. The graphic you posted above is almost exactly how I tie most of my log drops, although I tend to skimp on the number of turns in the timber hitch.
"Slipping" the timber hitch would be done by doing (however many turns you plan) around to at least the backside of the log, but do it by tucking a loop under the loaded wrap instead of pulling the whole tail of the rope through. Make sure the "slipped" rotations are all further around the log than you need for holding the load.
When the log gets to the ground, loosen the eye and pull the tail; Voila! 1-3 slipped turns are yanked out in a moment. Trying to "slip" more than 3 turns becomes too difficult to tie, so there is no point in doing that. I usually only slip 1-2 turns; but then I usually only use 2-3 turns total on my timber hitches.
Ummmmmmmmm; if you slip a preceding Half Hitch off the end of a spar, it melts to nothing, for it is just a loop crossing itself. But, if you slip a Marl off the end of a spar, it doesn't just melt to nothing whenst you pull the ends, but rather an OverHand Knot is left in the line. The Half is simpler to do, simpler to undo etc. but less secure, but probably deforms line less so is probably statically stronger, but also allows more slip friction conversions of impact force to heat to possibly be stronger in dynamic conditions as well. The Marl is more secure,takes more time to set properly, but the left over Overhand in the line can sometimes get in the way, but; can also be returned to climber thru pulley quicker> without fear of line running out of pulley(knot stops it), especially if has a slip in it too if lying way high and fast (to keep from 'jamming' or at least less frustrating..). It jest depends on what ya need.
To further confuse things, if you make a Half Hitch like not a preceding Half, but rather like the first pic in Metals046 line drawing.......and pull it from each end; it inverts to a Marl, for this type of Half Hitch does leave an Over Hand Knot in line if slipped off the end of the spar!
Speaking of which, it is best not to start a timber like this(Half Hitch, whereby after making the eye around the Standing, you immeidately go under the line-at the point of least 'pinch'), but rather crossing over, then under to start 'loose braid/ temporary eye splice' to secure. This reduces the line tension by friction of contact and pinch, before the first trapping of the line; and then also places that first trapping/'nipping' of the line further away from the 'teepee' that gives least security. Each Turn gives more friction reduction to line tension (to trap easier) and then until you come around half way (inline with Standing Part) where figuratively the most 'pinch'/ trap/ 'nipping' of the line is (assuming all contacts on convex locations on spar).
5 Tucks on Timber isn't required, just suggested, but would give significant friction reductions, and travel to hopefully firm final pinch/nip to secure.
Strength(retention)wise, it is best to take a Round Turn, rather than a Simple Turn around the Standing Part. Anything bends/deforms the Standing (leading to 'capacity loss' because line can only support on the inline axis, not on the cosine/across axis, so is 'strength' is reduced or forces leveraged higher that are carried within the rope device ). This (Round Turn) strategy can work against ya, if the direction of the pull changes, because the system then can't self adjust to minimal forces as well (ie slide around as easily to be inline with changing pull direction).
To further confuse things, if you make a Half Hitch like not a preceding Half, but rather like the first pic in Metals046 line drawing.......and pull it from each end; it inverts to a Marl, for this type of Half Hitch does leave an Over Hand Knot in line if slipped off the end of the spar!
Speaking of which, it is best not to start a timber like this(Half Hitch, whereby after making the eye around the Standing, you immeidately go under the line-at the point of least 'pinch'), but rather crossing over, then under to start 'loose braid/ temporary eye splice' to secure. This reduces the line tension by friction of contact and pinch, before the first trapping of the line; and then also places that first trapping/'nipping' of the line further away from the 'teepee' that gives least security. Each Turn gives more friction reduction to line tension (to trap easier) and then until you come around half way (inline with Standing Part) where figuratively the most 'pinch'/ trap/ 'nipping' of the line is (assuming all contacts on convex locations on spar).
5 Tucks on Timber isn't required, just suggested, but would give significant friction reductions, and travel to hopefully firm final pinch/nip to secure.
Strength(retention)wise, it is best to take a Round Turn, rather than a Simple Turn around the Standing Part. Anything bends/deforms the Standing (leading to 'capacity loss' because line can only support on the inline axis, not on the cosine/across axis, so is 'strength' is reduced or forces leveraged higher that are carried within the rope device ). This (Round Turn) strategy can work against ya, if the direction of the pull changes, because the system then can't self adjust to minimal forces as well (ie slide around as easily to be inline with changing pull direction).
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regarding 1/2 hitch vs Marl: I defer to your greater knowledge, and I stand corrected.
For those of you who don't quite get it, a 1/2 hitch goes half way around the rope it forms a loop with. A marl goes a full circle round, less the small amount lost in the change in direction between the bitter end and the standing end.
(I did check up on you, TreeSpyder, and I used your website to find the answer!)
For those of you who don't quite get it, a 1/2 hitch goes half way around the rope it forms a loop with. A marl goes a full circle round, less the small amount lost in the change in direction between the bitter end and the standing end.
(I did check up on you, TreeSpyder, and I used your website to find the answer!)
