Knotless rigging (caribeaners)?

[Nailsbeats]

Dan and I have been talking about this subject and I thought it deserved it's own thread.

I have been using steel krabs clipped into a bowline for rigging wood since I got them. I understand the impact danger and try to do what I can to mitigate it while still enjoying the ease and speed of the knotless game.

My question is, am I the only one using steel krabs to do this? What are ya'll using for this?

Sorry, I spelled caribiners wrong in the title.

 

[(WLL)]

Dan and I have been talking about this subject and I thought it deserved it's own thread.

I have been using steel krabs clipped into a bowline for rigging wood since I got them. I understand the impact danger and try to do what I can to mitigate it while still enjoying the ease and speed of the knotless game.

My question is, am I the only one using steel krabs to do this? What are ya'll using for this?

Sorry, I spelled caribiners wrong in the title.

if you like doing it like this why not use chokers and slings instead of putting weird loads on the krabs. maby you could invent a bent krab so it fitts the wood better

 

[joesawer]

No, you are not the only one doing it.
I know lots of people who do.

 

[John464]

accident waiting to happen imo. I prefer knots, but would enjoy the extra efficiency if it didn't jeopardize safety. Although a running bowline can be tied in approx 5 seconds and un tied in about the same. How more efficient does knotless make you?

Krabs are designed to support a load, they are not designed to be slammed on a trunk by a piece of impacting wood.

I havent ever done knotless rigging,except when speedlining, so I could be in the dark on the whole process.

 

[Nailsbeats]

accident waiting to happen imo. I prefer knots, but would enjoy the extra efficiency if it didn't jeopardize safety. Although a running bowline can be tied in approx 5 seconds and un tied in about the same. How more efficient does knotless make you?

Krabs are designed to support a load, they are not designed to be slammed on a trunk by a piece of impacting wood.

I havent ever done knotless rigging,except when speedlining, so I could be in the dark on the whole process.

I would say it takes half as long on average and throws and retrieves a lot easier. When I am climbing out for a tip tie I can clip the rigging rope and biner quickly on my saw biner instead of carrying the rope or holding it in my teeth. You aren't messing around setting knots, the rope comes up, throws around, quick clip/sinch and you are moving down or making the next cut.

I am not promoting this method to anyone, but it has worked well for me. With anything in treework, it has it's perameters and it's up to the user to make that call.

 

[treemandan]

if you like doing it like this why not use chokers and slings instead of putting weird loads on the krabs. maby you could invent a bent krab so it fitts the wood better

That was a thought but the rope bends just fine enough.

 

[treemandan]

I would say it takes half as long on average and throws and retrieves a lot easier. When I am climbing out for a tip tie I can clip the rigging rope and biner quickly on my saw biner instead of carrying the rope or holding it in my teeth. You aren't messing around setting knots, the rope comes up, throws around, quick clip/sinch and you are moving down or making the next cut.

I am not promoting this method to anyone, but it has worked well for me. With anything in treework, it has it's perameters and it's up to the user to make that call.

True enough, now lets talk about passing a re-belay.

 

[Nailsbeats]

if you like doing it like this why not use chokers and slings instead of putting weird loads on the krabs. maby you could invent a bent krab so it fitts the wood better

That would solve the "loading" issue on the krab. You would need to set one while the other is comming back. Once the rope is back it would be a clip and go.

It would also move the krab away from the piece and possible in a safer position. It could still get hit, but it would be able to give. I carry 4 slings and krabs in a pouch on my saddle all the time for redirects, false crotches and taking multiple limbs in one rig set.

A disadvantage to this is now that krab is exposed and liable to get caught in a pulling operation instead of tucked in to the limb allowing you to use all of the line all the time.

 

[Nailsbeats]

True enough, now lets talk about passing a re-belay.

I don't know what that term defines Dan, fill me in.

 

[D Mc]

accident waiting to happen imo. I prefer knots, but would enjoy the extra efficiency if it didn't jeopardize safety. Although a running bowline can be tied in approx 5 seconds and un tied in about the same. How more efficient does knotless make you?

Krabs are designed to support a load, they are not designed to be slammed on a trunk by a piece of impacting wood.

I havent ever done knotless rigging,except when speedlining, so I could be in the dark on the whole process.

John, you are correct. Using carabiners as a choke termination to rig down wood is a very bad idea. The problem with it, is that it will work right up until the time it fails. And it is always at the most inconvenient time.

Rigging wood necessitates a flexible, secure attachment. Biners are not flexible. Knotless rigging works very well for daisy-chaining multi limbs on a speed line where weight is not an issue.

Nails, you are not the only one using this system for rigging wood. But this is not a safe method.

Dave

 

[TDunk]

I just did a maple yesterday using biners. No probs. But i also used two biners on each choker. So i figured that the rope would break before the biners did. I thought it was ALOT quicker on my part and for the guys on the ground. I had two chokers made up so when they were lowering the limb i was setting my next choker. I only used that system for smaller loads, when taking down the spar, yes i used knots.

 

[Ekka]

2 threads of how I use a knotless system with carabiners. I do have a spliced eye in the end of my lowering rope and use a 72kn Omega carabiner.

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=46847

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=47587

Also this 9.75mb WMV

www.palmtreeservices.com.au/video/lowering.wmv

For those of you who dont use a sling and just a biner in the end of a lowering rope dont forget you can lessen the load on the biner by taking wraps around the part you are cutting.... two or three wraps makes a huge difference. Quite acceptable for lighter loads.

For those of you using the knotless system for top stropping (lowering block beneath cutting point) I'd be very surprised if you weren't putting some half hitches into the system prior to the sling/biner, ideally the lowering rope carries those half hitches.

I would rather a sling bash into the tree then my lowering rope, I'd prefer throwing out a sling then cutting off ends of my lowering rope due to crushed fibres. Using the knotless system means your slings are taking the beating, the carabiner isn't loaded poorly and is out of harms way in most cases, if not you toss it out and fit a new one.

In all the time I have rigged I have not once lost a load, broke a rope or smashed a biner, and tying knots does suck.

 

[treesandsurf]

If you learn to rig using knots then there's no problem. Not to sound egotistical but tying a running bowline should be second nature for any climbing arborist, IMO.

jp

 

[Ekka]

LOL, you think because we knotless rig we didn't learn to tie knots or rig with them?

That is funny, and an assumption. :monkey:

One of the best advantages of knotless rigging isn't for the climber in the tree you know .... think of the ground crew.

Clip off the sling, lowering rope back up in the tree whilst you have already slung the next branch ... meanwhile your monkeys are still trying to get to the knot which is stuck underneath the load. Then if the guy on the lowering rope had gloves on and is trying to untie it he gets the chits and has to toss his gloves off to unpick the knot.

The advantages are many.

Knotless rigging .... new school, tying knots .... old school.​

 

[treesandsurf]

Ekka, my post was not directed towards you or anyone in particular. That was an assumption on your part!

Plenty good climbers use knotless rigging; to each their own.

jp

 

[Ekka]

No worries, just to me it read that we're deficient by some means.

I have one end of my lowering line spliced the other not, sometimes a reversal means tying knots.

For really big stuff that's being top stropped tying knots will be the preferred method as slings get too long and do become a PITA ... a 3' dia tree needs a 10' sling and if you wanted to go twice around that's a 20' sling etc .... starting to be a PITA.

 

[tree md]

John, you are correct. Using carabiners as a choke termination to rig down wood is a very bad idea. The problem with it, is that it will work right up until the time it fails. And it is always at the most inconvenient time.

Rigging wood necessitates a flexible, secure attachment. Biners are not flexible. Knotless rigging works very well for daisy-chaining multi limbs on a speed line where weight is not an issue.

Nails, you are not the only one using this system for rigging wood. But this is not a safe method.

Dave

:agree2:

I have done it on speedlines and multiple limbs where weight is not an issue. If I am rigging down big wood I will use a knot every time.

 

[outofmytree]

I am going to hate myself for some time to come but... I agree with Ekka.

I use and recommend steel krabs for rigging using a double wrap around a limb before clipping on.

I would be interested to see scientific data that shows this to be any kind of risk. The benefits are increased time savings both climbing and on the ground, as well as superior throwing with a weighted end.

I learned my climbing and rigging from an accomplished climber and teacher who himself switched to krabs over a decade ago.

I have not seen many tree workers in Australia using knot-only rigging come to think of it. Perhaps that only works on the wrong side of the equator??

 

[Nailsbeats]

Well, I got what I was looking for. Looks like there is no black and white on the issue, so I'll continue to use them as I see fit. Thanks for the replies fellas.

 

[VA-Sawyer]

If I understand the question correctly, we are talking about wrapping the rope around a branch or other chunk of wood to be cut off the tree and using a steel biner to secure the terminal end ( tied to the biner, or spliced ) back to the standing line. Yes, this will result in side bending loads on the biner. This is probably the weakest axis you can load the biner on. As someone said earlier " it will work till it fails". I would carefully check after each use for any signs of bending such as the gate not completely closing on its own.
I think a better solution is to use a heavy clevis with a screw pin in place of the biner. Attach the rope to the clevis, wrap around the wood, and secure with the pin. No side loading problems, easy for groundcrew to undo, has throwing weight to boot. Just don't drop the pin. I know a guy that has done it this way for years. He swears by it.
Come to think of it, I'm not sure I've ever seen him tie a running bowline in a tree. No, I'm not talking about myself. I keep forgetting to put the dang clevis on my order list, so I'm still tying knots.
Rick