Lean + Target ->...Prune?

[lxt]

DDH,

I dont hate Seer, I just despise someone who uses all book smarts & No common sense all the while professing their work as the holy grail in tree care.

Osage Orange or a White Oak on the white house lawn does not eliminate the need for due diligence, I know where in a certain town crowned "tree city USA" where many of their prized trees failed after ongoing attempts to save them & yes Osage orange was one of em, along with a Kentucky Coffee Tree, several Gingkos & others.

Same town just wanted me to provide a form of preventative for their main street prize Ash Trees..........I declined, told them it would be a waste of time & money and enivatably the trees would succumb to the borer, so Bartlett got the Job!!! amazing after they treated trees in the same town at the other end for EAB that are now all gone.

So, with that said where is the fine line? and in Seers case............we all know he would save a 170 yr old silver maple hanging over the queens bed room, or atleast try! LOL I admire his conviction but in some instances it borderlines stupidity, he just cant tell the difference and thats what is so concerning!




LXT.......

 

[arborjockey]

Anti topping hippies have ruined any type of logical crown restoration discussion . Its a tough horse race between humanity(complete removal because someone WILL be killed), a light to moderate prune (which is throwing some furniture off the titanic to save weight), and finally the removal of a deemed mature tree. The cuts to be made seem obvouse to me. The tree growing back over the sidewalk makes it easy. The trunk to canopy ratio will never be correct but a lollipop is better then a off set eye sore.

I keep hearing property owner. Someone actually owns that strip other then the city/county/gov.?
Come on its osage orange. Tough as spring steel.

The sidewalk needs to go way around the tree. Let the old girl breath a little.

And yes, at least do a hazarouse evaluation.

Just my 1/2 cent......then again what do I know.

 

[treeseer]

" Anti topping hippies have ruined any type of logical crown restoration discussion .

Yup; what're they smokin? :angry2: Too bad; the pruning discussion would be a lot more interesting than the blowback.

"The cuts to be made seem obvouse to me. The tree growing back over the sidewalk makes it easy. The trunk to canopy ratio will never be correct but a lollipop is better then a off set eye sore."

Yup, yup and yup, except there is no "correct" ratio. Generally desirable, maybe.

"I keep hearing property owner. Someone actually owns that strip other then the city/county/gov.?

Nope.

"Come on its osage orange. Tough as spring steel.

Yup.

"The sidewalk needs to go way around the tree. Let the old girl breath a little.

Too late, sadly.

"And yes, at least do a hazarouse evaluation.

There have been at least a dozen qualified risk assessments.

"Just my 1/2 cent......then again what do I know.

Enough to think and get info before throwing opinions around. :msp_thumbup: That shows common sense. Shooting off mouths before brains are loaded shows something else. (I know; I do it often enough! :frown O and thanks ddh; this is indeed a much-studied tree. Good point on frequency of stem failures, which raises the question of why trees are drilled so often to find out stem wall thickness.

As for me being perfect, who said that? Not me. I'm open to correction, and constructive criticism.

As for trying to save every tree, that's not me, either. As an example, this most recent podcast about a hollow(ing) leaner, based on the October 2010 story. http://www.isapodcast.com/pod/ISA_DD028_060812.mp3 I'm happy to hear correction, and constructive criticism on that one too.

 

[beastmaster]

I have been accused of liking trees more then people, well maybe some trees more then some people would be closer to the truth. I have the up most respect for Mr TreeSeer. If that tree was compermised by a defect or defects that made it unsafe and a hazard I am sure his choice of action would of been different.
In most Citys historic trees are prized, though rarely getting the popular support that this tree is receiving. I am sure that this tree will routinely be risk evaluated and monitored.
Lean in a tree by its self isn't always a risk, you must take in other factors. I am not there, but Mr. TreeSeer was, and I am sure his knowledge and understanding of risk factors are far greater then mine.
I think its funny when I point out to a homeowner potential hazards in one of their trees and they ask, ''could it fall''? Sure it could, but so could any tree., The majority of trees I see that have falling over during storms showed no prior warning that they were ready to go. Should we remove all trees that have targets under them?
I would understand if the tree had root decay, or had just recently started to lean or been shedding branches. But in this case after being evaluated by an Arborist, was prescribed a course of action, removal of weight on the downside. I don't see why his evaluation is coming under attack, unless you doubt his competence.
I guess a lot depends on how you look at it. Half full, half empty. Maybe if we were there and looked the tree over we would feel different about it. A picture doesn't tell the whole story.

 

[arborjockey]

" Anti topping hippies have ruined any type of logical crown restoration discussion .

Yup; what're they smokin? :angry2: Too bad; the pruning discussion would be a lot more interesting than the blowback.

"The cuts to be made seem obvouse to me. The tree growing back over the sidewalk makes it easy. The trunk to canopy ratio will never be correct but a lollipop is better then a off set eye sore."

Yup, yup and yup, except there is no "correct" ratio. Generally desirable, maybe.

"I keep hearing property owner. Someone actually owns that strip other then the city/county/gov.?

Nope.

"Come on its osage orange. Tough as spring steel.

Yup.

"The sidewalk needs to go way around the tree. Let the old girl breath a little.

Too late, sadly.

"And yes, at least do a hazarouse evaluation.

There have been at least a dozen qualified risk assessments.

"Just my 1/2 cent......then again what do I know.

Enough to think and get info before throwing opinions around. :msp_thumbup: That shows common sense. Shooting off mouths before brains are loaded shows something else. (I know; I do it often enough! :frown O and thanks ddh; this is indeed a much-studied tree. Good point on frequency of stem failures, which raises the question of why trees are drilled so often to find out stem wall thickness.

As for me being perfect, who said that? Not me. I'm open to correction, and constructive criticism.

As for trying to save every tree, that's not me, either. As an example, this most recent podcast about a hollow(ing) leaner, based on the October 2010 story. http://www.isapodcast.com/pod/ISA_DD028_060812.mp3 I'm happy to hear correction, and constructive criticism on that one too.

Like a golden retriever I wag my tail extra hard sometimes (OBVIOUS.) Which brings on a pat of the head that is quit a bit harder then enjoyable. Oh well

More importantly the Philippine sensation won last night. Not by as much as the compu box #s
but a.OBVIOUS win.

 

[Incomplete]

I just need someone to hug that tree for me. >

 

[superjunior]

All osage orange trees should be erradicated from the planet. I recommend removal..

 

[pdqdl]

This is gonna be unpopular with alot of you guys.....sorry, but it's straight up truth.

Does everyone who's saying this tree needs to go even realize that it's a historic 170 year old tree?

Do you realize that it's an Osage Orange? Have you ever seen an Osage Orange with a main stem failure? I have not.

Do you realize that Osage does not decay easily at all? Dead Osage posts can be found around here which have been in the ground for 50-60 years and are still solid. This is a living, compartmentalizing tree. Concerns of hollows and rot are inconsequential in Osage Orange. It's quite obvious that this tree has continued to add new wood on a consistent basis, just by looking at the basal flare of gnarled, outrageously strong wood growing on the tension side of the lean.

If this tree were to ever fail, I'd lay 10:1 odds that it would be a partial uproot. Risk to people is minimal with this tree, and risk to property is well within my acceptable parameters for this species in it's placement.

Just because you guys dislike or even hate TreeSeer, don't let yourselves get caught up in disagreeing with everything he says, just because he said it. Take the time to learn the whys, and maybe we'll be able to keep a few more historic, heritage trees like this one.

I would like to add something meaningful and pertinent to this thread, but DDH pretty much covered it. For what it is worth, he is exactly right. Osage Orange (generally called hedge or hedge-apple around here) are incredibly durable trees.

I am rather surprised that Treeseer didn't mention that in his original post, as I consider the tree variety rather important to this discussion. Sorry 'seer, I don't know every genus, so calling it a "Kewanee Maclura" in the .jpg name didn't ring any bells.

 

[pdqdl]

All osage orange trees should be erradicated from the planet. I recommend removal..

Why?

They are the best firewood you can find, and they make great fenceposts. They are not bad shade trees, although they are a pain to trim and work in.

I can think of lots of trees I like less than hedge.

 

[Pelorus]

For a "historic tree" it sure lives in a tough spot. Mebbe it is historic cause it is like the last survivor of the Alamo.
Be nice if that Town/City would show it more love than just a haircut and a shave.

 

[treeseer]

pd sorry for lack of info; could have said a lot about it. and yes they are not the easiest to climb and work in, but not that hard either.
Pelorus you got that right; we are trying to get some root work approved; trouble is it's been all volunteer work so far, and the volunteer is 600 miles away.
junior, you need more experience. nothing super about eradicating a fine species like this.

aj Like a coyote I howl sometimes; so loud that everyone who hears thinks I am howling at them or to them or for them or at them, but I'm not.
I'm just howling. obviously. :biggrinbounce2:

What matters is Rajon Rondo and the Men in Green got burned by LeBron's bunch. The old gang got smoked by the Heat, but OKC's Young Guns will clap Thunder and Lightning and take it all in 6, unless Battier can stop Durant; unlikely.

Like a golden retriever I wag my tail extra hard sometimes (OBVIOUS.) Which brings on a pat of the head that is quit a bit harder then enjoyable. Oh well

More importantly the Philippine sensation won last night. Not by as much as the compu box #s
but a.OBVIOUS win.

 

[arborjockey]

How do you guys come to a conclusion? All I read is take 25% of the living tissue......BUT From where. I looked in all the ISA literature and not one picture of that tree is shown. If its not in a book its not deemed logical. If its not written by an educated idiot " I proclaim it witchcraft and foolery"uttahere2:

 

[treeseer]

"How do you guys come to a conclusion? All I read is take 25% of the living tissue
'

That is not a "shall". You need to read the tree and the site and the client, after knowing the A300 Parts 9 and 1 (Scope-> Objectives -> Specifications). Also reading the BMPs and the bigger books help you to become an educated idiot and come to the right-as-possible conclusions. No letters after your name needed.

Apply a safety factor, and a solid disclaimer. A little luck helps too.

 

[arborjockey]

Big books have to many pictures. I prefer the the small fat ones myself.
The jokes about the " 25%" it go's with cutting a branch back to a subordinate of 1\3 the size. SHALL, SHOULD,SHAN'T, fancy words for " you need look up the specie of tree and research its hardiness towards pruning. "

Shigo said 90% of the green industry doesn't even know how to drag brush. Yet all of them can state the YANSI 300 standards.
None of this is directed towards u treeseer or comprehensive tree guys. Just seems like every guy over here older then 22 has it all figured out and hates any type of direction. They see 10 jobs and they have it all figured out..
I started at 23 and haven't even scatched the surface at 35. People think "climb tree cut tree" easy job.:hmm3grin2orange:

I post as if every tree is a cake walk. In real life I consider every little miner prune a highly intricate ordeal. Every job is big to me. My moms rosemary is a Bonsai work.
When I posted "oobvious " it is. Well, while sitting on my a$$ in front of my computer it is.

The upright pieces over the road are gone. The new canopy starts at the top of the section over hanging the sidewalk. Big harsh cuts on the street side.
To all the osage lovers. YES YES I've seen them tear huge branches out. They tended to over extend and over weight their tips. Then the codominant branches get so big the lower ones tear out. I was only around them for about 3 years yet saw this in 3 or 4 situations.

 

[treeseer]

....all of them can state the YANSI 300 standards....

Well a lot SAY they know them, but ime most have never read, much less understood them. They routinely skip over the key step--establishing the objective. They seldom write specs (aka a coherent work order). Instead they quote crap like the 1/3 Rule, which got tossed in 2001. :msp_thumbdn:

It ain't rocket surgery, but it does take a little bit of time and study to use the A300. Once it's habit, it saves a lot of time and hassle. I just had a huge beyotchfest with a client today because I did not revise the work order after a tree that I said should be removed broke and smashed the tree i had to prune. :angry2: Lots of branches cracked; could not see that from from ground

Two adjacent trees also needed extra pruning to balance, due to new exposure. Took 5 extra hours overall but they said hey where is that written? We ain't gonna pay! So I met them in the middle and wound up working 2.5 hours for free. Obviously no one was happy. i ain't 100% on this; always learning.

 

[treemandan]

please cut down the tree. pretty please?

 

[treemandan]

This is gonna be unpopular with alot of you guys.....sorry, but it's straight up truth.

Does everyone who's saying this tree needs to go even realize that it's a historic 170 year old tree?

Do you realize that it's an Osage Orange? Have you ever seen an Osage Orange with a main stem failure? I have not.

Do you realize that Osage does not decay easily at all? Dead Osage posts can be found around here which have been in the ground for 50-60 years and are still solid. This is a living, compartmentalizing tree. Concerns of hollows and rot are inconsequential in Osage Orange. It's quite obvious that this tree has continued to add new wood on a consistent basis, just by looking at the basal flare of gnarled, outrageously strong wood growing on the tension side of the lean.

If this tree were to ever fail, I'd lay 10:1 odds that it would be a partial uproot. Risk to people is minimal with this tree, and risk to property is well within my acceptable parameters for this species in it's placement.

Just because you guys dislike or even hate TreeSeer, don't let yourselves get caught up in disagreeing with everything he says, just because he said it. Take the time to learn the whys, and maybe we'll be able to keep a few more historic, heritage trees like this one.

Summer 2011 TREE Fund Report: A Tree (Still) Grows in Kewanee | Tree Fund Summer 2011 TREE Fund Report: A Tree (Still) Grows in Kewanee | Tree Research & Education Endowment Fund

Some good points and some else mentioned that "no two tree are alike,like fingernails" which I interpret in some ways to mean that " no two situations involving trees are alike". It could be said that Seer has come across a situation involving a tree where pruning like that to mitigate risk is seemingly viable. That is what it looks like and intentions are good... I suppose.

But #### all that, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions and don't I know it and probably you do too so cut that thing down for the safety of the people ,if that is what society has come to, and get some mexicans to plant some locust, or something stupid as they do, fix the sidewalk and mill the trunk of the historic tree for posterity purpose which, besides hard work,has gotten us this far.

And Seer, do whatcha like, do it your way.you're good at it.

 

[treemandan]

For a "historic tree" it sure lives in a tough spot. Mebbe it is historic cause it is like the last survivor of the Alamo.
Be nice if that Town/City would show it more love than just a haircut and a shave.

That tree was literaly " kicked to the curb" and it shows.

It might behoth a historian to air layer or otherwise propogate the historic tree. In fact I think I will get some Osage bonsai going. I like the bonsai cause if it ever gets in the way you can easily move it and you never have to worry about it falling on yer house.

 

[treemandan]

Big books have to many pictures. I prefer the the small fat ones myself.
The jokes about the " 25%" it go's with cutting a branch back to a subordinate of 1\3 the size. SHALL, SHOULD,SHAN'T, fancy words for " you need look up the specie of tree and research its hardiness towards pruning. "

Shigo said 90% of the green industry doesn't even know how to drag brush. Yet all of them can state the YANSI 300 standards.
None of this is directed towards u treeseer or comprehensive tree guys. Just seems like every guy over here older then 22 has it all figured out and hates any type of direction. They see 10 jobs and they have it all figured out..
I started at 23 and haven't even scatched the surface at 35. People think "climb tree cut tree" easy job.:hmm3grin2orange:

I post as if every tree is a cake walk. In real life I consider every little miner prune a highly intricate ordeal. Every job is big to me. My moms rosemary is a Bonsai work.
When I posted "oobvious " it is. Well, while sitting on my a$$ in front of my computer it is.

The upright pieces over the road are gone. The new canopy starts at the top of the section over hanging the sidewalk. Big harsh cuts on the street side.
To all the osage lovers. YES YES I've seen them tear huge branches out. They tended to over extend and over weight their tips. Then the codominant branches get so big the lower ones tear out. I was only around them for about 3 years yet saw this in 3 or 4 situations.

Yansi? Last time I worked with NC on those Lindens he was yansi-ing about going after dead wood 1 and 1/2 inch thick and all sorts of hooplah. I looked at the tree with regards to his time frame like this.
Of course all that yansi-ing stopped shortly after I clogged the drop zones just getting in the tree.


New quote " don't yansi me to death boy!" or " keep yansi-ing me mother####er and see what happens"

And did Shigo really say that? Well good for him! Whoever he is.

 

[treemandan]

Why?

They are the best firewood you can find, and they make great fenceposts. They are not bad shade trees, although they are a pain to trim and work in.

I can think of lots of trees I like less than hedge.

I definatly want to bonsai some osage, get little tiny lime green brains.