Leaning White Oak - Taproot Questions

[treeseer]

If anything,then this is what I would do.Leaves are mulch and tree food,bare ground is bad ground

She, I totally agree with your advice about mulch. But re pruning, your red lines indicate that you would remove upright laterals, which is the very opposite of proper reduction cuts.

Biomechanically, leaving horizontals does less to reduce lever arm than leaving uprights. Upright branches contribute more shade, windbreak, habitat, air purification, erosion control etc. and should also be left for that reason.

Most importantly, removing uprights leaves a wound facing the sky and is more prone to cracking and decay than a wound facing downward. This is just common sense, I think. Removing small horizontals and downrights does more to lessen twisting and cracking of the trunk.

 

[Stumper]

Be anxious for nothing. The tree doesn't appear to have any grave problems looking at the pics. Some reduction of the horizontal portion of the section on the right would seem appropriate. Mostly-don't fret-it isn't a healthy practice.

 

[skwerl]

I'm still not seeing any reason to whack on the tree unless the customer just plain doesn't like the shape. You aren't going to convince me that whacking back one side is going to positively affect the health and stability of the tree. Those 'forces' on that limb are what cause the tree to become stronger, just as doing chinups and pushups makes our muscles stronger. Reducing the load only wounds the tree and eventually reduces strength (IMO). I'm not 'book smart' like Guy but most of what he preaches is unnecessary whacking on healthy trees and trying to save terminal trees. I say leave the healthy limbs on healthy trees alone.

The only thing accomplished by whacking limbs on that tree will be the appeasement of a nervous customer who doesn't understand tree biology.

 

[pinus]

Skwerl, you are joking
If tree "muscules" are so easy to train, there wasnt breakage of trees-branches...
IMO, the tree seem being leaned towards the horizontal branch and the trunk lean was increased in the past after some strong wind due the partial extraction of roots or due soil erosion. If roots were not damaged very strongly then tree can re-estabilish them.
Treeser, by mechanics, retaining of the upright laterals will give very large twisting-wrencing load to the horizontal branch for which compensation tree will increase wood growth on it, but there is danger for trunck cracks-splitting, IMO.

 

[treeseer]

Skwerl, you are joking
If tree "muscules" are so easy to train, there wasnt breakage of trees-branches... by mechanics, retaining of the upright laterals will give very large twisting-wrencing load to the horizontal branch for which compensation tree will increase wood growth on it, but there is danger for trunck cracks-splitting, IMO.

"Some reduction of the horizontal portion of the section on the right would seem appropriate."
Stumper is right on this. The lean alone is reason to lightly reduce. A better picture of that trunk may show the seam/crack. For those unafraid to crack open a book, p 478 of A New Tree Biology shows a dissection of another white oak with a seam that also did not look too bad on the outside. Shigo gives a good discussion of primary and secondary cracks on p. 479.

pinus, I'm not an engineer, but I think that horizontal laterals cause more twisting than upright laterals. If the upright laterals are end-heavy AND the trunk defect is significant, some tip reduction may be appropriate there too. I am talking about small, pole-pruner-sized cuts, not whacking but snipping.

defstar, can you get a better picture of the trunk? And when you jump on the ground opposite the lean, does the ground "give" any?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

The "crack" you see on your monitor, shows up as a double stemed vine on my monitor, that is if you're talking about this picture:

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

The lean alone is reason to lightly reduce.

No, it is not a reason, unless you are talking only about asthetics.
A naturally leaning tree is, statisticly, no more likely to fail than a not leaning tree!

 

[treeseer]

No, it is not a reason, unless you are talking only about asthetics.
A naturally leaning tree is, statisticly, no more likely to fail than a not leaning tree!

I'm only talking physics, not aesthetics.

Where are these statistics? That seems wrong on several levels. A lifelong lean that is self-corrected in one way or another is a lot more stable than a recent lean, which is what this one looks like.

Re the picture, I'm still not seeing a vine, tho I hope that's all it is. In the pic, note how there is little flare visible on the right. Note also that the buttress below the seam/"vine" does not flare like the buttress on the left. In fact, it appears indented, not a good sign.

As with most trees, a thorough Root Crown Exmaination is needed before an assessment is complete. Would you agree, mike?

 

[pinus]

If I look this tree pic I´m sure that it wasnt grown up with such lean. After storms I see lot of trees which got the permanent lean due roots pullout-partial damage. Lot of trees survive this and reestablish itself, like this at the moment seem being done. There are several other possibilitie too, like another fallen on it tree damaged-leaned it or tractor pushed...
The vine version seem for me not being the case as there isnt visible point where its stems are going into soil
I´m not angry on that tree, but I´m pruned the horizontal branch of in several stages spanned to some 5 years or more period.
Horizontal laterals are usually compensated with branches all around the trunk. So, wind cannot twist tree around the trunk. Such vertical laterals-sprouts are not compensated with anything and wind will twist them around the main branch the gravity will then immediately contribute to the wind also and the main branch will broake.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

By naturally leaning, It is meant that the tree grew up leaning naturally, not that it was blown sideway by weather. If the roots are uplifting the soil, then it's a different situation.
What looks like a lifted root plate is just a pile of dirt dumped there, at least that's my opinion.
And no, I don't see the root flare buried, the flare looks normal and what may look like an indentation, is just the area between buttress roots.
The only health issues this tree has is misguided tinkering by the homeowner. The best action to take at this point is to stop driving equipment over its roots, and if the lean bothers you, don't look at it.

 

[Sheshovel]

She, I totally agree with your advice about mulch. But re pruning, your red lines indicate that you would remove upright laterals, which is the very opposite of proper reduction cuts. {Quote treeseer}

Well I said I would not put a saw to the tree at all,
then
I said IF I did..
(which I do not recommend for this tree) ,
then I would cut where I showed in the pic.
It may be the exact opposite of proper reduction cuts but that is what I would do IF I decided the lean warranted such action which I DO not.
But just for conversation sake lets say I decide to cut.
By cutting off the upright branches that are growing on the long lateral,
I AM taking stress off the lateral because I am removing weight and twisting in the wind action that
those limbs are directly affecting the lateral with.
If done when the sap is running(active growing season)and the cuts are made right,
the tree will seal the wound over before any rain or heavy moisture causes any problems as you mentioned above.
But I do not think it is necessary in this case.
I am known sometimes to do the exact opposite of what the so called "rules"or "guidelines"
or "recommendations "say because every situation and tree are different all in different
micro-environments,and have individual characteristics unique to that particular tree.
This calls for flexibility and ingenuity and study and thought in each and every tree situation that is put before you.:sword:
Both Mike Mass and Pinus and a few others on here are entirely correct
in their observations of the facts put before us and I agree with them as well

 

[treeseer]

If done when the sap is running(active growing season)and the cuts are made right,the tree will seal the wound over before any rain or heavy moisture causes any problems as you mentioned above.

It will? That would be amazingly fast. Where defstar's white oak is, a 4" cut would take about 4 many years to seal, depending. Not sure how much running sap is going to help. Lots of spores and water may land on a wound in 4 years, lots of sunshine to crack the wood, lots of acid deposition to dissolve the suberin and slow the sealing.

How many oaks have you pruned in CA, then inspected 4 years later? 0?

ANTB Dictionary, p. 116: "Avoid leaving a flat-topped cut". Shigo's ingenuity and study yielded some good advice; not Gospel, for sure, but I hate leaving wounds that face the elements.

 

[defstar]

sorry i've been away a couple days...

treeseer...the ground on the left side doesn't seem to give at all...

mike maas...i'm happy with the trees shape/form...i just do not want it to uproot...so i'm seeking the advice of pros to see if there is anything i can do to help the tree or should i just let him be...

i'll try to get more pictures for you guys in the next couple days...

is there a possibility this isn't a seam...but just the pattern at which the "shagg" type bark is peeling...it peels like this all the way up the tree...

 

[pinus]

Defstar, I suspect that it is a crack, the trunk crosscut shape is refering to that also. The crack can be result of weak (side) lightning in the past or in our climate region, the rapid temperature jumps in winter are causing cracks on water rich, rather thin bark tree species. (birch, aspen, mid aged oaks, other hardwoods).

 

[treesurgeon]

the tree is fine. dont dig around it and if anything, have it trimmed. being in sand, the roots go down deep and far out. oaks out here never uproot unless theres a major problem. we do allot of work on the lake out here and on sand dunes. those roots go everywhere and they are deep. the lean on that tree is nothing to be worried about.

 

[treeseer]

Defstar, I suspect that it is a crack, the trunk crosscut shape is refering to that also.

pinus, the "crosscut" shape is determined by buttresses, isn't it? Not sure what you mean here.

"is there a possibility this isn't a seam...but just the pattern at which the "shagg" type bark is peeling."

Let's hope so. First use a trowel to scrape the dirt away from the trunk on the right side until you see the roots. Then use a rubber hammer to tap the trunk, listening for hollow sounds.

What direction do storm winds come from? Here it's NE, so we're cautious with trees that lean to the SW.

 

[pinus]

Probably the detailed pics will go, but by present pic1 seems for me that around the "seam-crack" trunk is thicken a littlebit, that I tried to say.
I didnt find proper word, fortunately Mike said it out: root plate movement, that is obvious for me. Not the reason of it (wind, people, erosion).Trees with tap root (oaks, pines), IMO, if their root plate moves, the tree rotates a littlebit around its stump-taproot. At one side, rootplate a littlebit lifts soil up, on another a some depression cavity is formed by root plate. Trees without taproot (spruce), always the rootplate is moving up, no depression cavity is formed.
I observed, that trees usually will be damaged when strong wind is from uncommon direction, oftenly from the opposite direction to the usual wind direction. The bigest damage will when wind is accompanied with a strong rainfall. Rainfall "doubles" the wind strength

 

[Sheshovel]

I said nothing about leaving a flat topped cut.I cannot count how meny Oaks here that I have pruned
but an angled cut is what I would use in that situation so no water sits but runs off.Stop nit picking treeseer you are putting words in my mouth I did not say.What I said is I would leave the tree alone.

 

[defstar]

treeseer...storm winds here are mostly from the north to northwest...other than the occasional hurricane forces we get from the south once a year or so...the last one (and worst i've seen) hurricane rita...and the oak obviously survived...

btw...the oak leans toward the north...

 

[treeseer]

Sheshovel, my question is, if you cut upright laterals, how can you avoid a flat-topped cut? If you angle it, the cut will not be on the collar, will it? Sorry if this seems like nitpicking, but making cuts that close as fast as possible is pretty important, isn't it? One of several reasons why removing downrights is generally preferred.

def, glad your oak stood up to Rita. looking forward to seeing the results of your root collar excavation.