Leaning White Oak - Taproot Questions

[Sheshovel]

never mind too hard to make you understand

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Sheshovel, my question is, if you cut upright laterals, how can you avoid a flat-topped cut? If you angle it, the cut will not be on the collar, will it?

You are fixated on making that perfect collar cut. Who cares? Leave a stub, or much better yet, don't make the cut in the first place.
If you leave a stub, as it slowly rots away, the collar will slowly close in. I didn't make that up, that's just how it happens in nature. Birds don't have chainsaw feet. Dead branches slowly decay, as collars heal the opening. With White Oaks, the process is timed perfectly. The wood rots from the outside in, at the same pace as the collar expands. In fact the collar expands such that it produces high pressure on the decaying limb. It's almost like God planned it that way.
I beg you to leave this tree alone! If further photos show a major defect, then, and only then, we can talk about a remedy.

 

[rebelman]

I make collar cuts religously. Because I care. Compartmentalization time is lengthened with stubs.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I make collar cuts religously. Because I care. Compartmentalization time is lengthened with stubs.

I disagree!
What wall number of CODIT (Compartmentalization of Decay In Trees) is it when the collar closes?
There is no number for that!
If it mattered, wouldn't Shigo have numbered it?
The biggest problem i see with collar cuts, is arborists try so hard to make them, 9 out of 10 times they hit the collar! Stubs are not a big deal!
Collar injuries, on the other hand, are a big deal!!!!!
I would rather have 100 stubs cuts on my tree than one collar injury.

 

[rebelman]

The stub is a food source for the pathogens. They are more likely to breach the bowl shaped depression under the collar. The stub also prevents wound closure, inviting other pathogens to invade. Shigo promotes proper pruning. Stubs are not proper pruning. Neither is cutting the collar. CODIT means Code of Defense in Trees. God I hope your kidding.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

A perfect cut is impossible.

A saw is straight, and makes a straight cut. Collars are not straight, and even if they were, the nature of a cut, opens a tree up to pathogens, so what's most important is the size of the cut, tool sanitation, tree health, and things like that.

Lets talk about what a good margin of safety is when making a cut. How far from the collar should we be?

We train our grunts to stay about 1/8" away for each 1" of diameter.

Do you believe by increasing or reducing that distance we could affect tree health? I don't think it would matter one bit if we doubled or even tripled it! I'm sure by reducing it, we'd be cutting into more collars.

You mentioned the stub being food for pathogens. As you know, the branch collar and the trunk collar form a cone shaped structure in the tree where the branch is attached. When you kill a branch by cutting it, there is an area of wood that is abandoned by the tree. Previous to removal, this area is walled off chemically and mechanically to prevent decay, should the limb die, or in this case, be killed.
It is also an inter-twined mesh of the two types of wood, trunk and branch, that gives it another type of decay resistance.
The tree knows that limbs may die, so the barriers are set in place as a survival tactic, if you will. This cone shaped, ingeinious design has the strongest decay barrier the tree has.
It will not matter if you leave a 1/16" stub, a 1/8" stub, or even a 1" stub while cutting.
So no, I'm not kidding.

For to make my point, here are the top 5 google images of proper pruning cuts:
http://www.littleyorkplantation.com/facts/collar%20cut.jpg
http://www.bugwood.org/gfcbook/figure159.gif
http://www.umext.maine.edu/onlinepubs/htmpubs/images/branch.gif
http://www.igin.com/Resources/shigotree24.GIF
http://comenius.gvm.cz/physics/P6210037.jpg

 

[Stumper]

I think that the last image was most enlightening.

 

[Stumper]

Rebelman-FYI-it isn't code of defense... CODIT stands for Compartmentalization Of Decay In Trees. Mike has a point about ministubs not being a big deal. On the other hand, while I attempt to make targeted cuts, I don't have a nervous breakdown about nicking an occassional collar. Remember that , despite being larger in area-flushcuts close very fast. That doesn't mean that they are proper but.. A nick on one side of the collar does't create big closure problems.. and fortunately most small wounds compartmentalize without major health issues.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

On the other hand, while I attempt to make targeted cuts, I don't have a nervous breakdown about nicking an occassional collar...<snip>... A nick on one side of the collar does't create big closure problems.. and fortunately most small wounds compartmentalize without major health issues.

Here's where we have a problem.
Nicking the collar is like spiking a tree during a trim. It's a direct injury to the trunk.
Look at this:http://myschizobuddy.com/uploads/Lingerie/VS/V249226.jpg

Oops, I mean this:
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/HTMLFILES/flush%20cuts.htm
A large injury to the trunk creates a CODIT response that can engulf the entire diameter of the tree.
Scroll down to the Black Walnut picture (on the second link, don't scroll down on the first link, pervert).
This same thing happens to some trees when they are spiked during trims. The combined response to several small injuries can add up to the same response as one big injury.
Rebelman, in his conscientious effort to not leave a stinking stub, can nick several collars, causing a combined response in the tree of total compartmentalization of the stem, eventually catastrophic.

 

[rebelman]

I guess you really are an arborist. Except for seeming to discourage target pruning and minimizing collar cuts. But you were talking about stubs of less than an inch, It seemed you were saying that longer stubs were okay, what with the who cares comment. Your "grunts" represent you every single time they make a cut. I'm curious Mike, have you ever used a ladder?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Stubs are simply a cosmetic issue, not a tree health issue. Go into the forest and you'll see branches that die normally are seldom a problem. As mentioned, there are few target cuts that occur naturally. Limbs slowly die and decay away from the tip back and the outside in, as that collar slowly closes. Fast wound closure is not necessarily better.
When I prune, I remove stubs, so it looks pretty, but I try never to hit the collar like in this picture:

Do I use a ladder? Yes, all the time. Most of the trees I work on are less than 80 feet or so, so I use a 32" ladder to access most trees. My ground man leans the ladder up, while I put on my gear, then once I step off, he puts it against the next tree.
Much of the work we do is residential, so then at the end of the job; the ladder goes against the house to blow the sawdust off the roof.
I can also SRT or footlock, if the situation calls for it, but I am admittedly not that good at it.

 

[defstar]

hello everyone...i know it's been a while...but here are the cross-section pictures i promised...the first three are views if you were on the lean side of the tree...the fourth is an updated pic from the same side as before...

i know you'll have a field day with the second image...it definitely looks like there is a crack running up the tree...but when looking at it in real-time...the bark is peeling away in unison...an there are smaller layers of bark under this line...which you cannot see in the pic...

but anyway..here they are...

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid199/pe86d0e2369d107fa4ee3509fc37e7b6f/f08fed04.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid199/p2ce3b61af36251c4bb549db1db39df5d/f08fecfa.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid199/pba92e6313a7064b613287e6cb773e7d0/f08fecee.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid199/p1698d0337d32e2724b647206b3058976/f08fece7.jpg

 

[treeseer]

NIce pics def, and good job clearing the buttress roots. On #2, even if there is more bark underneath, that crack is still a sign of strain and an indication that lightening the end may be advisable. A light pruning for symmetry may make for a safer structure.

As for Mike's tolerance of stubs outside of collars, I also would rather leave too much than cut too much. I don't agree that "Stubs are simply a cosmetic issue", but that's for another thread.

 

[defstar]

Why thank you...what do you mean by "buttress" roots...?

i see the term all the time on here but don't know exactly what it means...