Let's talk about hacks/ ethics we should all have

[treeseer]

Lots of training available; the industry welcomes you! Pruning is not that complicated. read this and see if it makes sense.

 

[sgreanbeans]

So would you call me a hack? I've been doing this for a long time. On and off since i was nine. Full time since i was 20 or 21.

Now i did have drug and alcohol problems. I was the guy with lot's of court dates and spent time in jail. However my problems were my problems and work was work. I always tried to do my best. Mind you i did top trees. I didn't know better at the time.
Im now 27, and im studying for my arb cert. Ive done away with drugs and alcohol and have 28 months clean and sober.
I still have a suspended license, but im blessed with a job that hass looked passed that. Its sux but i have one more year without it.
I cant get a conditional license with a drug charge.

Again, it is all about the work ya do. Your history only matters if it is current and repetitive, as most of the time, it translates directly to the work. I know many guys with a troubled past, only to overcome it and change their stars. On the other hand, I know many more who choose to stay in that lifestyle. My point was, that those who stay in it, their work often reflects their personal life and vice versa. When your true mission is to make enough to get high, that day, and that's it. The work reflects this. If you took that, as that all who have had shady past, suck, well that was not my intent. I had a rough start up myself. Marines fixed all or..........most of that. And I am not talking about the guy who occasionally burns one or has a couple beers at the end of the day. The guys who wake up wondering how they are going to get that next batch of whatever so they can get "well" is who I am talking about. Also, ya dont have to be a druggie to be a hack. I know several other guys who just suck at tree work. Clean as a whistle, but complete and total hacks. They learned from uncle bubba how to properly prune a maple by cutting of its head, and will argue with you about it. They use spikes on prunes "how else am I going to do it"
A hack does bad work, lies to the client, rips them off, makes no effort to protect and safe guard and tears up the place. Goes big as possible all the time with no concern whatsoever on what it breaks or damages on the way down, only cuts leads because they lack the skill or balls to climb away from the trunk. Stuff like that.

Like beasty said, you can have all the shiny chit in the world, that does not make you a good arb. A guy here, a CA (in title only), just bought a crap load of BIG gear, nice stuff too. He is really trying to make a go of it. But! He still does crack head work. Has no concept of good work, thinks crane pics that flip over and around are good shots and lion tailing is a proper pruning practice. Still a hack. I just did a removal at a house that he did a ash prune the year before. HO has no clue about trees, but knew enough to be pretty upset at the ash's appearance. The worst lion tail ever! This is a huge ash, had lots to work with and could have been a freakin awesome tree. Had a great structure, just need to be deadwooded and a little live tissue removed. Now it looks like a umbrella. 40ft leads, bare as hell. Now it has thousands of epis growing that make it look like it has fur.

 

[old_soul]

There are two reasons I bring up the hack subject. Number 1 is there is a company here locally that advertises "licensed and insured" when in fact they are not. I have been behind them on 2 jobs where theyvhave been thrown off for lack of providing ins info. When cornered with the truth by a HO they fall back on trying to lower the price. They advertise via CL just like i do and in my mind at least it makes us all look bad and pushes clients to call one of the large companies around here. The second is there was a guy a year or so ago that went off about part timers posting in this forum and referred to anyone that dosent do the work full time as "hacks that are stealing work from the ones trying to make an honest living" . I don't know or pretend to know tree biology it is sompthing imam trying to learn as well. Iv turned down nearly every pruning job iv been called for and just been honest with the customer Letting them know I wasn't comfortable doing the job because I'm not sure of the effects it will have to the tree. I stuck with removals for now. And for the 18 month requirement for ISA I emailed them about the requirements I saw on their website and was told i need to provide invoices from 3 years.

Well right there is your problem. no legit operation will advertise tree work on craigslist. that's where all the hacks are!

As you have noticed your "competition" with the no insurance, shoddy work, etc etc type jobs

If you don't want to be associated with that type bullsh*t then you need to market to clients who actually care about their trees, like you say you care.

All the CL people want is bottom dollar work.....they don't care about proper trimming, safety, etc just lowest price

Trying to grow a business based on that type work is a horrible business model and has a high chance of failure

 

[Atlanta Tree Services]

Here in Atlanta, when a customer tells me that they have gotten quotes from companies from tree services on craigslist, I really don't want to even go look.. Not all companys that advertise on there are "shady" but the majority here are.. they all offer ***$150 REMOVALS*** but what they dont tell ya is they have no workman's comp or liability insurance.. Some people are only concerned about the bottom line... even if its a matter of a couple hundos they will take the risk... craziness

 

[jefflovstrom]

Well right there is your problem. no legit operation will advertise tree work on craigslist. that's where all the hacks are!

As you have noticed your "competition" with the no insurance, shoddy work, etc etc type jobs

If you don't want to be associated with that type bullsh*t then you need to market to clients who actually care about their trees, like you say you care.

All the CL people want is bottom dollar work.....they don't care about proper trimming, safety, etc just lowest price

Trying to grow a business based on that type work is a horrible business model and has a high chance of failure

Yup,,
Jeff

 

[Valandscaper]

Yeah I have had several times where the HO would say " well ...... Said they would do it for this cheap price" and I always tell them the same exact thing. " if you feel comfortable with that guy taking down this tree over your home I suggest you let him do the job". Almost every time they break and have me do the job for my price. There is no way I'll ever do a $150 removal. I'm looking at other ways of advertising but I'm not sure what works right now. Any suggestions?

 

[sgreanbeans]

Not all companys that advertise on there are "shady" but the majority here are..

Very true, I dont advertise there looking for work. As most on there looking, want bottom dollar. Me and a few buddys, that do other contracting, post on there to give a little edumacation to the GP. Most don't know what a Arborist is. I make sure to let people know that it is in their best interest to hire a CA instead of bubba hack and to do a background check on any and all, who they may contact. I get a lot of nasty emails because of this, Threats of all sorts, lmao! Guess bubba doesn't want anyone to know his past. Funny tho, they never give up a name. One buddy has a alert set on his smart phone. Every time someone post's in his category, he gets notified and then he post's his right on top of theirs! His straight up calls out the hacks of his industry, sometimes by name! He gets bad messages and threats of assbeatings, chit is funny. Childish and immature, I know, but its still fun.
Kinda like when I was a recruiter, we would sit in the office, drink 40's and prank call all the kids that "no showed" a appointment. This was before caller ID. "Is little Jonny there?" "Hi Jonny, how does it feel to be a puss"

 

[peetar]

The problem is, as far as removals go, there is no such thing as a hack. As far as a typical HO is concerned, they want standing debris removed. If the tree goes away and nothing gets broken, the logical best choice is the one with the lower price. It is a big IF, but it is what it is.

If I get a call from someone wanting any trim work, I ask them WHY they want it. I tell them that the best thing for the tree is usually to leave it alone. There is a balance between what is best for the tree and the needs of the person that owns the tree.

If a couple in their 60s want to top a silver maple next to their house, I ask why? The man hates cleaning the junk off the roof and the wife really freaks out everytime the wind blows at night. They want the shade but the wife hates having the tree over her head and doesn't sleep while the wind is kicks up. I will top that tree after I explain why it's not good for the tree and the wifes' fear is not warranted.

Why? Because they will be dead before a removal/plant grows enough to give shade/ seperation from the neighbor. I'm going to do a way better job than an average hack, and the wife can sleep at night.

Last fall I had to take care of some storm damage on one of two maples in a B Y / next to a house that had been topped. The way they were drop crotched I figured I'd did them. Sure enough, the lady said it was me who did them. 22 years and she remembered me, and really crazy, I could ID my cuts from back then before she said anything.

Topping is bad. I didn't care much for climbing above my old cuts. But what was your mindset in 1992?

The regulars here will certainly figure me as a hack. To a degree they are right, to many degrees they are wrong. I just beleive in property rights.

 

[tidy]

There comes a point when you realise that certain clients demand a hack job, it is a sector of the market. I need to put food on the table but I will never do hack work on significant trees.

 

[sgreanbeans]

Yeah, well, if ya top a tree, next to a house........... your right, your a hack. You can acheive the same desired result, by educating the client and doing proper reductions.

 

[beastmaster]

I post educational pieces on Craigs list all the time in farm and garden. I explain about why topping and liontailing is so bad. I tell them if someone offers to top their trees they not real tree men but either uninformed amateurs or out and out dishonest hacks. I don't leave no contact info. I'm a caigs list terrorist. But maybe I might make one person think. I always end them with asking people to google tree topping and see what it says.

 

[olyman]

Take the isa test and if you have to lie about your experience to get to take it.

lie about it?? what is your level of honesty,,to the public you want business from???? you alluded to having a tree service,,how about if this post,,was tacked onto a sign on your front yard???? if youll lie about one thing,,youll lie about many things...

 

[DR. P. Proteus]

I didn't do it or am not in it for the money.
Im sorry i took offense to what you said. But not every one that has problems are hacks.

Im in this line of work because of my love for tree's. Also the feeling of freedom working in this feild.

Do you love trees with a chainsaw and a chipper? Freedom? What freedom are you talking about? If we all were free to do whatever we wanted and did it then wouldn't we be hacks?

I dunno and I don't want to talk about hacks or even ethics anymore. We all get together to bash up on some retarded guys which is a mechanism to bolster our own confidence and in reality we all have done our more than fair share of hacking.

Don't get me wrong though, it sure is fun to watch pimp-handed wannabes learn a lesson. There truly is no defining line between what is hack and what is not, its all in perception and perception is often lost, obscured or otherwise tainted to the point where nobody can make sense of it.

I have seen tons of ISA guys all done up in chaps and rhetoric enough to drown you go out and hack away everyday. These are the types I gun for as I also find it fun and also find it fun to see someone get their tree jacked up by hiring cheap.

 

[DR. P. Proteus]

Very true, I dont advertise there looking for work. As most on there looking, want bottom dollar. Me and a few buddys, that do other contracting, post on there to give a little edumacation to the GP. Most don't know what a Arborist is. I make sure to let people know that it is in their best interest to hire a CA instead of bubba hack and to do a background check on any and all, who they may contact. I get a lot of nasty emails because of this, Threats of all sorts, lmao! Guess bubba doesn't want anyone to know his past. Funny tho, they never give up a name. One buddy has a alert set on his smart phone. Every time someone post's in his category, he gets notified and then he post's his right on top of theirs! His straight up calls out the hacks of his industry, sometimes by name! He gets bad messages and threats of assbeatings, chit is funny. Childish and immature, I know, but its still fun.
Kinda like when I was a recruiter, we would sit in the office, drink 40's and prank call all the kids that "no showed" a appointment. This was before caller ID. "Is little Jonny there?" "Hi Jonny, how does it feel to be a puss"

One time I was in court and the judge asked me what I did for a living. I was reluctant to tell him as its none of his business but I told him I was an arborist and he asked me what that that was. I told him I wasn't going to explain it and that he should look it up.

****** judge dont' know what an arborist is.

I don't even use the term anymore and always felt that it was to much for the public to understand.

 

[VA-Sawyer]

If trees could talk, ......... would any of us not be called ' hacks '?

 

[jefflovstrom]

Do you love trees with a chainsaw and a chipper? Freedom? What freedom are you talking about? If we all were free to do whatever we wanted and did it then wouldn't we be hacks?

I dunno and I don't want to talk about hacks or even ethics anymore. We all get together to bash up on some retarded guys which is a mechanism to bolster our own confidence and in reality we all have done our more than fair share of hacking.

Don't get me wrong though, it sure is fun to watch pimp-handed wannabes learn a lesson. There truly is no defining line between what is hack and what is not, its all in perception and perception is often lost, obscured or otherwise tainted to the point where nobody can make sense of it.

I have seen tons of ISA guys all done up in chaps and rhetoric enough to drown you go out and hack away everyday. These are the types I gun for as I also find it fun and also find it fun to see someone get their tree jacked up by hiring cheap.

I think I understand something about you,,https://dictionary.search.yahoo.com...A2dxMQR2dGlkA1NNRTMzOF8x?p=idiot savant&.sep=
Jeff

 

[DR. P. Proteus]

I think I understand something about you,,https://dictionary.search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0SO8zhuQzdT8mEAnDpXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTB0ZWhlZ3FzBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1NNRTMzOF8x?p=idiot savant&.sep=
Jeff

I don't think that's it.

 

[CRThomas]

Ok I do tree work part time. Iv always wanted to own and operate my own business and I have been fascinated with free work since the first time I saw a climber working. I'm a pretty young guy 25. I am insured and am smart enough to know my limitations. I climb for myself and have 2 groundies. Iv got a few friends with tree businesses that I ask questions when I need to, and a contract climber that I hire in when there is a tree outta my league. I have a full time job that right now I have to keep I can't afford to jump ship but hope to build to full time. Here's my problem. The climbing schools I have looked at all require full time employment in the industry so for me it = no classes. I do my best to make sure I'm not labeled as a hack. I price fairly I don't go try to under cut everyone. I'm out here to build my business and donit fairly And ethically. And I feel part of that is proper training but I can't get that because it at least appears that this industry isnt welcoming to people like me. Can anyone elaborate on this for me. I'm trying to do this as right as is possible for me but not being able to take training classes or ISA tests and studies it is kinda frustrating.

You will be a hacker I have been in the bundle firewood so long I can't remember when I started two fellows near me started the bundled firewood business a year ago now I am a low life Hacker I am doing the same business as I have been doing with no changes but they the new starters but I'm the low life thats life

 

[Erik Hakso]

I think a hack is a craftsman that doesn't know what he is doing. A craftsman is a hack that is skilled at his craft! A piece of paper won't save you from being a hack, nor will not having it make you one. The point of the paper is a guarantee to someone else (the customer) that you have a minimum level of training. Nothing more nothing less. If you are a skilled tree service provider and customers trust and refer you, then you are set.

www.pro-cuttreeservice.com

 

[Hoowasat]

The point of the paper is a guarantee to someone else (the customer) that you have a minimum level of training.

Reminds me of seeing a doctor's credentials hanging in his/her office and still wonder if he/she finished at the bottom of the graduating class.