Looking for advice on Carlton chain and a Stihl 460

[IchWarriorMkII]

So I've been playing with my 460 after taking down my cotton wood tree and first posted about its lack of impress when burying the 32" bar in a soft cotton wood tree. But if you didn't catch that thread, here is my current set up:

Stihl Ms460 Mag 32" bar, Carlton 30rcs (Full skip round chisel) 7 pin sprocket.


It was suggested that my chain was probably very dull. I went and filed away with my Granberg File-N Joint and that helped, but not that much. Not as much as say, my 24" loop of LGX full comp I run on the 460 at times when I first filed it. So in a beat around the bush kind of way, I think the chain is sharp, because I have made chains sharp once before with filing.


So I knocked the rakers down a bit. It also helped, but not considerably so. I end up reefing hard on the saw to get it to cut, and keep the RPMs down. So I filed the chain again. Helped a little bit.

Today I purchased an 8 tooth sprocket... and that seems to really help. I can bog the saw in the cut by dogging too hard (Not that I really make this a practice, hence my hunt to find out why the saw can't cut fast/well enough to keep itself down in RPMS in the cut) and I had good chip flow. As for the chips, they were of decent size and indicated I had an okay sharp chain. Its been worked some so its probably due for a file up.

So where I am in the wonder is, I file the chain at 30* with 0* of tile on the Jig. Its what I file all my chains at and all my chains have shown significant increase in performance every time I file them after they are dull. This chain really doesn't... do I need to adjust my angles to make for a more efficient cutter? The Stihl chains on my 20" loops, and oregen chains on my 24" loops all seem to cut very well on the 30*/0* set up, but Im wondering if the shape of the Cartlon round chisel cutter is different.

Right now, I would say the saw cuts good with the 8 pin sprocket... To me it seems like 99% of the stock saws run 7 pins with long bars, and run well. I know the 8 tooth sprocket is helping compensate for the dull cutting perfomance (pun intended) of my chain, but is this an anamoly?

Im going to get myself some Oregon JG chain to see if its the chain itself next, but I'd like to know where I sit here... if I make any sense.

 

[beelsr]

So I've been playing with my 460 after taking down my cotton wood tree and first posted about its lack of impress when burying the 32" bar in a soft cotton wood tree. But if you didn't catch that thread, here is my current set up:

Stihl Ms460 Mag 32" bar, Carlton 30rcs (Full skip round chisel) 7 pin sprocket.


It was suggested that my chain was probably very dull. I went and filed away with my Granberg File-N Joint and that helped, but not that much. Not as much as say, my 24" loop of LGX full comp I run on the 460 at times when I first filed it. So in a beat around the bush kind of way, I think the chain is sharp, because I have made chains sharp once before with filing.


So I knocked the rakers down a bit. It also helped, but not considerably so. I end up reefing hard on the saw to get it to cut, and keep the RPMs down. So I filed the chain again. Helped a little bit.

Today I purchased an 8 tooth sprocket... and that seems to really help. I can bog the saw in the cut by dogging too hard (Not that I really make this a practice, hence my hunt to find out why the saw can't cut fast/well enough to keep itself down in RPMS in the cut) and I had good chip flow. As for the chips, they were of decent size and indicated I had an okay sharp chain. Its been worked some so its probably due for a file up.

So where I am in the wonder is, I file the chain at 30* with 0* of tile on the Jig. Its what I file all my chains at and all my chains have shown significant increase in performance every time I file them after they are dull. This chain really doesn't... do I need to adjust my angles to make for a more efficient cutter? The Stihl chains on my 20" loops, and oregen chains on my 24" loops all seem to cut very well on the 30*/0* set up, but Im wondering if the shape of the Cartlon round chisel cutter is different.

Right now, I would say the saw cuts good with the 8 pin sprocket... To me it seems like 99% of the stock saws run 7 pins with long bars, and run well. I know the 8 tooth sprocket is helping compensate for the dull cutting perfomance (pun intended) of my chain, but is this an anamoly?

Im going to get myself some Oregon JG chain to see if its the chain itself next, but I'd like to know where I sit here... if I make any sense.

stihl says 0* tilt on the file for all cutter styles but oregon and carlton say to do the 10* angle with chisel cutters and 0* with semi-chisel.

8 tooth will spin the chain 16% or so faster but you lose torque. great in softer wood but you shouldn't need it. A 460 should rip through that wood no problem.

practice sharpening. there are loads of threads here on that (you've probably been reading them for a couple hours already)....

 

[GASoline71]

Sorry dude... I sharpen my chains free hand with no guides... sharp as hell... don't matter if it is Carlton, Oregon, or Stihl chain. Which I run all three depending on where I'm buyin' my chain.

Cuttin' with a 32" bar is a lot different than cuttin' with a 24" bar... big jump... almost a foot of bar added on. It taken more umph to run that chain around that bar. You have to find the "sweet spot" when runnin' bars that big. You'll feel the chain pull the saw into the wood at a certain RPM as you apply some pressure to the saw... when it barely starts to show a sign of boggin' in the cut... lighten up on the pressure... this is where you will find the "sweet spot".

Just keep cuttin' mang... it takes time to get the feel for stuff like that.

Gary

 

[Timberhauler]

I use Carlton chain from time to time,but I prefer Oregon...The 460 loves a 28 inch bar with skip chain,although it will pull it,I've never liked to beyond a 28 on that saw.

 

[IchWarriorMkII]

Don't even say stuff like that, then I'll have to have a 28" bar and a bigger saw to pack the 32" bar around...


... Or do. Say it louder so the girlfriend can hear you and she can't argue when I come home with another saw :chainsawguy:


Thanks for the advice so far.

Gary, I understand what you mean with the sweet spot. Its not hard to find and hit with pretty much any other saw and bar and chain combo I have. Unfortunately what Im finding with my 460 is its never pulling hard enough to drop it into the sweet spot. With the 8 pin sprocket it does, and Im happy with the results, but I was concerned with it taking an 8 pin sprocket with that long of a bar to make it run "right".

 

[rahtreelimbs]

One would think that going from a 7 pin to an 8 pin with that 32" combo would make matters worse..................especially since the saw failed to impress the first time!!!

 

[IchWarriorMkII]

Perhaps Im not clear... but its just not cutting to beat hell, its slower than crap and the saw just wraps up. By throwing the 8 pin it stays in the power band better and makes some chips move... hence forth improving the situation.

Like I said above, its indicitive of a dull chain... but I can at least offer thats its an 'okay' chain. Maybe not the sharpest, but its certainly not dull.

 

[stihl 440]

dull

Perhaps Im not clear... but its just not cutting to beat hell, its slower than crap and the saw just wraps up. By throwing the 8 pin it stays in the power band better and makes some chips move... hence forth improving the situation.

Like I said above, its indicitive of a dull chain... but I can at least offer thats its an 'okay' chain. Maybe not the sharpest, but its certainly not dull.

Yup, dull. High rpms with that long of a bar is your first indicator, and also not cutting worth a crap is another one. Also on bars that long you have less room for error when fileing the chain. If you have a couple rakers or cutters not filed right it will throw the whole chain out of wack. A 32" should load that saw heavily with 7 pin, if you have to put an 8 pin on to keep rpms down, you got a dull chain. If you have a pic of your chain that would help a lot! We could diagnose it better.:biggrinbounce2: :hmm3grin2orange: :chainsawguy:

 

[B_Turner]

Somethings not right. Should run stronger than that, and 8 pin shouldn't really help. Typically one runs an 8 pin when the saw is cutting so fast you want to feed it more wood.

Have you tried a chain that you absolutely know is sharp with depth gauges correct?

 

[rahtreelimbs]

Stepping up to an 8 pin makes for less torque...............less pulling power. That saw should respond better with a 7 pin. You have more going on there!!!


Is the saw adjusted right???

Did you try another chain???

 

[IchWarriorMkII]

Im going to get a JG chain ordered here soon, I would imagine out of the box should be a well enough chain to test things out.


This is pretty much how the carlton chain has been cutting out of the box, so maybe not...

 

[IchWarriorMkII]

Hmm, dull as ?????

Not very good picture quality either.

 

[1953greg]

ick

1. make sure the chain gage matches the bar gage. dont laugh, i have miss matched them more than once.
2. make sure depth gage (rakers) are correct depth (.025-.030" for hardwoods). only way i can be sure is use a straight edge and feeler gage or use the preferred file w/ the raker file combo.
3. make sure the file is correct for the chain
4. make sure the cutting edge has some "bite" when touched w/ the finger

that setup definitely wil not need an 8 pin if the chain is right. i wood like to try a 6 if possible. even an 066 w/7pin can be bogged w/ a 16" bar if there is enough "bite" in the chain.

obtw i still struggle reading your posts

 

[sawinredneck]

I tried an 8pin 32" combo on mine, ONCE!!! I was in hardwood, the saw pulled it , but the oiler wouldn't keep up. Something else to consider.Going from a 24-25" to a 32" is stupid different!! I have watched a stock 046 run a 32" in Oak, it didn't impress me much, but it did it. Mine will pull it in hardwoods to my satisfaction, and it's gone in softwood!!!
I would try a 10deg up angle, sounds to me like you are not getting it filed right, maybe take it and have it ground and see if it cuts better and copy that?

 

[IchWarriorMkII]

I am currently trying the 10* file, and I was exactly to that point Red... Just going to drop it off and get ground to see if that helps.

Double checked the rakers, they are at .025, I might drop them a bit more.

 

[1953greg]

ick

looks like the file is too small for the chain. near new 3/8 chain needs 7/32" file but thats not the whole problem. .025 is enough in hardwoods

 

[sawinredneck]

Not making fun of you're filing Ich, it takes a lot to learn it right, I still am! There is a reason I have a grinder!! If it's not to rocked out, I can usually file it, if it is rocked out, or really dull, I grind, then touch up with a file.

 

[Tzed250]

There is light reflecting off of the chisel point. There should be no part of the cutting edge that reflects light when it is sharp. I agree with 1953, the file looks to small, thus giving an incorrect side plate angle. 7/32 brand new file is needed. Give it a try and let us know...

 

[beelsr]

I'm far from an expert in chain filing but.... yeah, chain looks dull.

grab a sharpie (i.e., cheapo dykem) and paint the cutter up before you file. give it a swipe and look at what you removed. paint it again and take another swipe. rinse, lather, repeat until the top plate and side plate have no "flat" to them (the part that shines when you put a light on it).

using the sharpie really helps you see what you're removing. the FnJ really helps eliminate all the freehand variables but you have to remember it kind of tight so you don't chatter....

don't file the rakers down past .025-.028 for hardwoods until you've filed much more of the cutter away. carlton's file-o-plate adjust the raker height as you file away the cutter (you need more raker height with a shorter cutter - chain sharpening 201, don't worry about it yet - more info on carlton's website).

also, file your gullets out a little more. this will be alleviated if you start using the proper filesize though - it looks like you're using a 3/16" file - which is for .325, not 3/8...

 

[SWE#Kipp]

heres a good explanation on chains and how they work and how to maintain them !!

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