oldsaw
"Been There, Milled That"
+1 That was the first thing that caught my eye. The penalty of using a too small file is that the file isn't big enough to sharpen the tip properly.
Mark
Looking for advice on Carlton chain and a Stihl 460
- Thread starter IchWarriorMkII
- Start date
Help Support Arborist Forum:
+1 That was the first thing that caught my eye. The penalty of using a too small file is that the file isn't big enough to sharpen the tip properly.
Mark
Frank Boyer
Addicted to ArboristSite
How flat should the top of the rakers be? I ground to the correct height and recontuured the chains on my 084 and that made a big difference.
My 460 pulls a 28" bar in hardwood fine. I hit some metal with the chain and the saw seemed to be useless. I changed to a sharp chain and my "old" saw was back.
My 460 pulls a 28" bar in hardwood fine. I hit some metal with the chain and the saw seemed to be useless. I changed to a sharp chain and my "old" saw was back.
IchWarriorMkII
ArboristSite Guru
Uh, its a 7/32 file...
I'm really new to filing, but I may (or not...) have something of merit on this thread.
As I studied cutter profiles, I note a significant difference between Stihl and Oregon recommendations. Stihl literature shows cutters with a more pronounced hook, which is a function of filing depth (relative to plumb, or into the gullet, not rearward into the cutter), and perhaps one reson they specify a slightly different file size.
Your cutters, in addition to the not-pointy point, seem to have the distinctive Oregon-style profile - maybe too much so. Me? I'd try lowering the file into the gullet and get a bit more hook. I noticed that when using the file guide that locates itself on the top plate and depth guage, it's pretty important to adjust the depth gauges more frequently than te free-hand guys need to, as too high of a depth guage throws off your base filing geometry. Now that you've reset the gauges, hit the cutters again, and concentrate on getting the file down into the toof, not just rearward into it.
Those Oregon profiles always struc me as looking half-done...
Oh, and get that 660.
As I studied cutter profiles, I note a significant difference between Stihl and Oregon recommendations. Stihl literature shows cutters with a more pronounced hook, which is a function of filing depth (relative to plumb, or into the gullet, not rearward into the cutter), and perhaps one reson they specify a slightly different file size.
Your cutters, in addition to the not-pointy point, seem to have the distinctive Oregon-style profile - maybe too much so. Me? I'd try lowering the file into the gullet and get a bit more hook. I noticed that when using the file guide that locates itself on the top plate and depth guage, it's pretty important to adjust the depth gauges more frequently than te free-hand guys need to, as too high of a depth guage throws off your base filing geometry. Now that you've reset the gauges, hit the cutters again, and concentrate on getting the file down into the toof, not just rearward into it.
Those Oregon profiles always struc me as looking half-done...
Oh, and get that 660.
IchWarriorMkII
ArboristSite Guru
Update:
I filed the chain last night, to 30*/10* tilt. I will probably refile to drop the gullet and get more of a hook tonight.
Left the 8 pin on it and attacked my 40" cotton wood chunk I've been using as a test log. The chips were big and healthy, the saw cut very well in the power band and moved swifty through the log. Easily the best cutting perfomance I've seen out of this chain.
Perhaps I will improve the chain tonight and make it neccasary to put the 7 pin back on.
I filed the chain last night, to 30*/10* tilt. I will probably refile to drop the gullet and get more of a hook tonight.
Left the 8 pin on it and attacked my 40" cotton wood chunk I've been using as a test log. The chips were big and healthy, the saw cut very well in the power band and moved swifty through the log. Easily the best cutting perfomance I've seen out of this chain.
Perhaps I will improve the chain tonight and make it neccasary to put the 7 pin back on.
stihl 440
Addicted to ArboristSite
Hmm, dull as ?????
Not very good picture quality either.
Thanks for the pics! Yeaaaaa, that says it all, it's really dull. It takes a 7/32 file, also if you didn't know. And your file was held too high, she needs more of a hook buddy. If I was you I would try freehanding it and see how you do. Just don't push on the file, and you should be ok. But thanks for the pic (makes for an easier diagnosis). Have fun and good luck!
:rockn: 
beelsr
ArboristSite Guru
Then you've got to lower the file more into the gullet - you've got too much file about the top plate. You want 10% of the file body above the top plate. With the FnJ, you just rotate the dial until you get it at the proper height.
What I do (and you can't until you get the hook filed properly) is attach the FnJ to the bar and then adjust the file until it's sitting in the "groove" of the tooth - where it's _almost_ going to file but just not quite. Then , I turn in the depth of cut cap screw in a little bit (turn more for more dull = more filing required) and start the filing process. Every few times the chain is filed, the file needs to be dropped a little because the top plate isn't flat (parallel to the bar) - just like how the depth gauges need to be dropped, the file needs to be dropped. Eventually, you'll need to switch to a 13/64 chain - even with oregon and carlton chains - because you'll start hitting the dog ears of the links. The 13/64 clears them, just barely. By the time you need to do that though, you should be a sharpening pro...
IchWarriorMkII
ArboristSite Guru
Thanks for the replies.
Ill put some hook on it, I really tried to mimic the factory angles of the chain... and not to the greatest results
I am now graduating from Rookie level filer to Seasoned Rookie level
Ill put some hook on it, I really tried to mimic the factory angles of the chain... and not to the greatest results
I am now graduating from Rookie level filer to Seasoned Rookie level
stihl 440
Addicted to ArboristSite
Thanks for the replies.
Ill put some hook on it, I really tried to mimic the factory angles of the chain... and not to the greatest results
I am now graduating from Rookie level filer to Seasoned Rookie level
It takes time ich, it takes time.
:rockn:
oldsaw
"Been There, Milled That"
You may be best off just taking it somewhere to be machine sharpened. That will get rid of some of that metal at the bottom of the cutter (in the gullet) that it is going to take a long time to get right. Get yourself started on a clean slate.
I'd then ditch the guide and try it by hand. It's not that hard, Dad had me doing it when I was a kid. Just keep from swinging your elbow out when you file (keep hand motion in a straight line, it isn't "natural"), watch the up angle to hit the point that your guide missed, and you are home free. You will get a feel for it in short order.
The bigger the chips, the better you did, okay, not exactly, but if you are getting big wood chips, you are probably doing fine. That's another thing you will get a feel for over time, chain condition by watching the chips.
Glad you got some success.
Mark
I'd then ditch the guide and try it by hand. It's not that hard, Dad had me doing it when I was a kid. Just keep from swinging your elbow out when you file (keep hand motion in a straight line, it isn't "natural"), watch the up angle to hit the point that your guide missed, and you are home free. You will get a feel for it in short order.
The bigger the chips, the better you did, okay, not exactly, but if you are getting big wood chips, you are probably doing fine. That's another thing you will get a feel for over time, chain condition by watching the chips.
Glad you got some success.
Mark
Last edited:
stihl 440
Addicted to ArboristSite
file guide?
Do you have the carlton file guide plate from bailey's for 3/8 carlton chain? I have it and the husky file guide (useless for me now, but I use the depth gauge tools on them). If you don't, get it and the husky file guide they should help with your file problem. But then again I would try it freehand, just to see how you would do.:greenchainsaw:
Thanks for the replies.
Ill put some hook on it, I really tried to mimic the factory angles of the chain... and not to the greatest results
I am now graduating from Rookie level filer to Seasoned Rookie level
Do you have the carlton file guide plate from bailey's for 3/8 carlton chain? I have it and the husky file guide (useless for me now, but I use the depth gauge tools on them). If you don't, get it and the husky file guide they should help with your file problem. But then again I would try it freehand, just to see how you would do.:greenchainsaw:
IchWarriorMkII
ArboristSite Guru
I use the Granberg jig, its all I have.
Burvol
Bullbuck
So true Gary...I run the same setup, but a 460 with a 32 inch bar and full comp square ground chisel. You can definetly feel the sweet spot you speek of. The biggest thing I have noticed is letting the saw cut for itself. I still can't believe how many guys that have been in the trade for years and still do not COMPREHEND THE IMPORTANCE OF A RAZOR SHARP CHAIN!!!!! Why bog your saw down, chance injury, (that's right, a hot chain is WAY more safe) and fight it? As soon as I start to feel a chain go dull, I pull it and keep truckin.' Have you tried the saw on the ground, bar on a stump, pressure on the cutter towards you filing techinique? My dad showed it to me when I was hand filing, and it really works. You end up getting more control over the cutters and the angle is easy to see.Sorry dude... I sharpen my chains free hand with no guides... sharp as hell... don't matter if it is Carlton, Oregon, or Stihl chain. Which I run all three depending on where I'm buyin' my chain.
Cuttin' with a 32" bar is a lot different than cuttin' with a 24" bar... big jump... almost a foot of bar added on. It taken more umph to run that chain around that bar. You have to find the "sweet spot" when runnin' bars that big. You'll feel the chain pull the saw into the wood at a certain RPM as you apply some pressure to the saw... when it barely starts to show a sign of boggin' in the cut... lighten up on the pressure... this is where you will find the "sweet spot".
Just keep cuttin' mang... it takes time to get the feel for stuff like that.
Gary
beelsr
ArboristSite Guru
I don't know why I didn't mention this earlier, I thought I did but since you say you only have the FnJ...
Get the file guide that's a flt piece of stock with a little bend for the file and a couple screws or clips to hold it in place. You can use the oregon one, no problem. I got mine at Walmart. It correctly indexes the 10% so you can see where it needs to go. Also, it's great to take in the field with you for a quick touch up when you refill gas & oil or your belly...
$5-6 and worth it....
B_Turner
Addicted to ArboristSite
I used the Granberg bar mounted jig for years before I got grinders, and actually still use it sometimes on my .325 chain.
It is a bit of a pain to keep in place, but it work very well I think. The angles are very reproduceable each time which save metal. Can't drop the handle though..The trick with jig is to pay attention to file height relative to the cutter as it doesn't help out much in this regard.
I have recommended it to several people over the years that were not getting satisfactorily results freehand, and in all but one case their chains dramatically improved. Freehand is great, but not everyone catches on.
Last edited:
B_Turner
Addicted to ArboristSite
+1. I often see "pros" that don't seem to realized their chains are terrible. It confuses me, although I have learned to just let them thrash.
I feel that with any wood cutting tool, good sharpness and technique should have the wood feeling slightly spongy while cutting, regardless of the actually hardness of the wood. It's easier on you, the tool, and in the long run is the most productive. As soon as the wood seems "hard", I say figure out the problem which is often the edge is gone. Doesn't matter if wood is fir or black locust, the principle is the same. And in fact the harder the wood the more it all matters.
Last edited:
SinglerM
ArboristSite Operative
32" bar is too much I think.
For a 32" bar, you need a MS660. I've cut cottonwoods here in Utah that have had the bar on my 660 (32") buried. It handles it no problem. I'm using skip chisel chain. As others have mentioned, your chips will let you know how when the chain is dull. I sharpen with the Stihl file guide that clamps onto the file, it works well for me.
I have a 25" bar on my 440, for comparison. The most I'd probably put on a 460 would be 28".
Mitch
For a 32" bar, you need a MS660. I've cut cottonwoods here in Utah that have had the bar on my 660 (32") buried. It handles it no problem. I'm using skip chisel chain. As others have mentioned, your chips will let you know how when the chain is dull. I sharpen with the Stihl file guide that clamps onto the file, it works well for me.
I have a 25" bar on my 440, for comparison. The most I'd probably put on a 460 would be 28".
Mitch
IchWarriorMkII
ArboristSite Guru
Yea, tonight I was thinking to myself, if I cut any more cotton woods, I'd have me a bigger saw. Maybe to step up in a bar size, but mostly to handle the 32" with authority.
But, as I tell myself 3 saws is enough, my 460 is enough. For firewood gathering I don't need anything more than a 28" bar (which I want to get) and a 460 is plenty for that. And the cottonwood detail, well its a limted time basis... at least I hope so.
But, as I tell myself 3 saws is enough, my 460 is enough. For firewood gathering I don't need anything more than a 28" bar (which I want to get) and a 460 is plenty for that. And the cottonwood detail, well its a limted time basis... at least I hope so.
