Meteor Cylinder Quality

[Mastermind]

As several have noted, Meteor does not cast these cylinders, and there in lies the problem. They machine and plate them and throw in one of their fine pistons. Why they would put their name on these cylinders is beyond me. I've been disappointed, to say the least.

You've been disappointed because you had one in hand two years ago???????

I'm really not seeing where this "crusade" came from all of a sudden.

 

[blsnelling]

Randy, you won't even sell them without working them over. Then another sponsor starts pushing them as is. It's just an ongoing problem with most all of these AM kits. I simply find the Meteor kits more dangerous, because most of us trust the brand. Coming from you after mods would be an exception. Obviously those would be fine. I'm simply not satisfied with what's coming out of the factory. That's all.

 

[Arbonaut]

I'm using a Meteor kit to build a saw right now. I can't find anything wrong with it.For the work involved, it isn't that much cheaper than a Stihl kit. Probably half, but labor is what is expensive in America. If the Chinese are lagging in the area of casting metal, and the Italians are lagging in machining it, there is a gaping hole for a foundry and a CNC machinist in the U.S. to fill.

 

[nmurph]

I'll use their pistons but have been to leary to try their cylinders.

I read somewhere the cylinders are not in house. Heard they are China, Taiwan cast, or somewhere else and supposedly shipped to be plated. Just what I read somewhere if my memory is right.

That's what I was told when I inquired. Cast in tiawan, plated in Italy.

From what I understand. The bore isn't usually the problem on AM cylinders, from what I've seen. Its usually port shape, size, timing, beveling, squish, and combustion chamber shape.

So, who does the machining?

Everything you listed could largely be controlled in the mold making process. The beveling would be an after-thought, and the aftermarket kits are notorious for poor quality control on the beveling. They need to do a better job of training the six year olds on what is required to make a good bevel.

 

[Mastermind]

Randy, you won't even sell them without working them over. Then another sponsor starts pushing them as is. It's just an ongoing problem with most all of these AM kits. I simply find the Meteor kits more dangerous, because most of us trust the brand. Coming from you after mods would be an exception. Obviously those would be fine. I'm simply not satisfied with what's coming out of the factory. That's all.

I won't sell them as is because I modify cylinders......and I don't want to be in competition with watsonr. I do hear what you're saying though........but the use of two year old pics and blanket statements about the quality of Meteor kits is what makes this thread look as though you have an agenda.

You may just be looking out for the good of us all but it does seem like an axe is being ground here.

 

[kevinm9558]

I'm using a Meteor kit to build a saw right now. I can't find anything wrong with it.For the work involved, it isn't that much cheaper than a Stihl kit. Probably half, but labor is what is expensive in America. If the Chinese are lagging in the area of casting metal, and the Italians are lagging in machining it, there is a gaping hole for a foundry and a CNC machinist in the U.S. to fill.

Corporate taxes bro. It'll never happen with the current tax laws. Thats why Carhartt (and many others) have moved out to Mexico and beyond. Too bad though...

 

[blsnelling]

I'm just fed up with the poor quality. If the suppliers want that image changed, quit shipping junk. How hard would it be to inspect them before they go out the door? They can't be shipping that many of them each day.

 

[edisto]

I'm just fed up with the poor quality. If the suppliers want that image changed, quit shipping junk. How hard would it be to inspect them before they go out the door? They can't be shipping that many of them each day.

I'm still a little confused. When was the last time you had one of these in your hand, and how many have you seen in total?

 

[Arbonaut]

(From Bailey's current flyer.)


Never discount the United States of America and her ways, my friend. We are the only dog in the fight.

Corporate taxes bro. It'll never happen with the current tax laws. Thats why Carhartt (and many others) have moved out to Mexico and beyond. Too bad though...

 

[watsonr]

A few things come to mind. How would I have known that you were supplying Randy's cylinders? The fact of the matter is, I didn't. Further more, it doesn't matter. I'm not attacking a you, Randy, or anyone else. I'm attacking a very poor product. So, we can leave the names of individuals and companies out of this.

Further more, there has been no communication to suggest that these particular kits have been improved. I provided feedback, and have heard nothing since then. Randy showed one good 372 kit. Jeremy shared another 460 kit that was nearly as bad as mine. Again, the inconsistency in quality.

Additionally, you're implying that because Randy got a decent kit, that they're all good and should be trusted. Quite the opposite has been the case with most of these AM kits. The quality control simply isn't there. Inconsistency is one of the main reasons that I simply won't deal with them for a paying customer. One cylinder will be fine, the next one junk. Do you think someone wants to pay $250 for a port job on a cylinder that is that inferior? IMHO, they're wasting their money, and I'm hurting my reputation. It's not profitable or wise for either party.

You mention that you have seen bad OEM cylinders as well. Bad is a very subjective term. I can guarantee you, that I have never seen a cylinder come from the factory any where near as bad as these kits that I shared. Also, OEM quality is much more consistent. To suggest otherwise is simply not being honest.

You related this to comparing my current work to my earliest work. The difference, is that I have shown the improvement as time went on. IMHO, the burden of responsibility is on the provider of said cylinders. If they've been that significantly improved, at a high level of consistency, then that needs to be shown. That's what I'm asking you, or anyone else, to do here. Referencing one cylinder does not do that. How many bad AM cylinders have we heard about, while at the same time, there are others running them fine. Again, you can't trust the quality.

I want to add, that I highly respect the fact that Randy will not sell these kits as they come from the factory. That is consistent with the Randy that I know, that wouldn't put his name on junk. But, when I see them being pushed without said mods, then I feel that I hae a responsibility to share what I've seen with the rest of the community.

It would appear that you're asking me to buy one of your kits. Why would I want to do that? I'm not selling them and I'm not interested in them until I see a consistent huge improvement in quality. Again, that burden of responsibility is on the provider of said kits. And remember, I'm not attacking you as a person, I'm simply pointing out the problems that I see with these kits, as a service to this community of users that otherwise might not be aware of the risks. If you would like me to review a few new kits, I'd be more than happy to do so, and send them back afterwards. As always, I'll provide honest and transparent feedback, just like I have here. My goal here is not just to warn unsuspecting buyers, but ultimately, to see these products improve. I've given feedback and suggestions on these kits over the years, in an effort to help make that happen. I'd be more than happy to do that for you as well.

I'm attacking a very poor product.
Two years after the review you've decided to take up the flag again.

Further more, there has been no communication to suggest that these particular kits have been improved. I provided feedback, and have heard nothing since then.
Maybe you should have checked back before posting? Sounds like your pissed they never called.

You related this to comparing my current work to my earliest work. The difference, is that I have shown the improvement as time went on. IMHO, the burden of responsibility is on the provider of said cylinders. If they've been that significantly improved, at a high level of consistency, then that needs to be shown.
I think Randy did showed that.... but you didn't read that thread.... ops.

I want to add, that I highly respect the fact that Randy will not sell these kits as they come from the factory. That is consistent with the Randy that I know, that wouldn't put his name on junk.
Randy sells MODIFIED cylinders, why would he want to compete with Bailey's, NorthWood saws... and me:msp_smile:

It would appear that you're asking me to buy one of your kits. Why would I want to do that? I'm not selling them and I'm not interested in them until I see a consistent huge improvement in quality. Again, that burden of responsibility is on the provider of said kits. And remember, I'm not attacking you as a person, I'm simply pointing out the problems that I see with these kits, as a service to this community of users that otherwise might not be aware of the risks. If you would like me to review a few new kits, I'd be more than happy to do so, and send them back afterwards. As always, I'll provide honest and transparent feedback, just like I have here. My goal here is not just to warn unsuspecting buyers, but ultimately, to see these products improve. I've given feedback and suggestions on these kits over the years, in an effort to help make that happen. I'd be more than happy to do that for you as well.

For a current comparison Brad... I'm not defending anything... you said that two years ago they were crap and in your personal opinion... still are. You used information from near two years ago to tell everybody your opinion today.

I'll tell you what... I'll send you a kit free of charge... so you can compare. You post up the timing numbers, compression and all those things you do and then compare it to an OEM cylinder... timed cuts and all. I'll bet the newer design is far superior than that piece of scrap you posted in the picture you started this thread with. You comment was.. they were junk then and still are, don't waste your money..... OK, Lets waste mine instead!

Unless the market demands it, the quality won't change. Is this what you want to spend your hard earned dollars on?

BTW, I don't just gripe. I'll do anything I can to help see these kits improve. The potential is tremendous! These kits could easily come from the factory with optimized timing and properly shaped ports. I would love to see that happen. So, instead of seeing me as a complainer, realize that I'm fighting for the good of the community.

Lets fight together..Post up your address and I'll send you a kit......:chatter:

Yes I understand and agree Brad.....however we here at AS are what???? MAYBE one half of one percent of total of saw users/fixers world wide. (if that) Most people don't treat their saws like a family member and worry about every little thing.....it's a tool.....and only a tool... if it runs it's a good tool...if it does not run it's a bad tool....nothing more nothing less.........if it can't be fixed cheaply it's a replaced tool...

I agree also that quality control is generally somewhat lacking....that may also be different from different brands even if they are all made in the same shed....but in a capital based economy a bad thing either goes away or gets better.......ISO rating is the best way to try to tell good quality from bad on most things imported.

I have forever said "If the OEM saw industry was at all serious about it there would be no after market and OEM P&C kits would NOT cost 75% of the cost of a new saw"...until that changes, (spelled NEVER) the plain fact is cheaper alternatives will be sold and these will eventually stratisfy like the the difference between Meteor pistons and Golf with the usable floating to the top and the inferior ones sinking........just to broad a pictue to paint with one brush IMHO....to infer they were bad and always will be...

I couldn't agree more and neither did you Brad, you liked this post.....

 

[watsonr]

From what I understand. The bore isn't usually the problem on AM cylinders, from what I've seen. Its usually port shape, size, timing, beveling, squish, and combustion chamber shape.

Should have read Randy's post.. did a little research to see if....in fact they have improved because of your feed back several years ago before posting your "Do not buy comments"....those things you mentioned are what... things a builder fixes on cylinders.... and in your particular case.... OEM cylinders. Why are you fixing OEM cylinders... they are perfect aren't they?

I really think sending out an AM kit with ideal port shapes and timing would be the best scenario. I really can't understand why this isn't the case already. Basically ported out of the box. Certainly there are a few saw-to-saw type items such as squish that will have to be dealt with.

It would cost no more in manufacturing to make this happen.

Called copy right infringement. It would mean that builders like Brad would be out of business. Every cylinder needs tweaked by a builder, even OEM and those really good aftermarket cylinders... require the same amount of work. But for us boys that can't afford a Snelleriz'ed saw, these kits are about 1/2 the price and pretty damn good quality.

I'm just fed up with the poor quality. If the suppliers want that image changed, quit shipping junk. How hard would it be to inspect them before they go out the door? They can't be shipping that many of them each day.

I tell them what specs to follow, they build the kit and inspect. If I was building them I'd be called a manufacturer, not a supplier. I'll bet that hundreds a day are shipped. I'd love to pop over and inspect a few thousand, measure port timing, squish, angle and all that horse hockey every day and every kit! Your going to get a few bad one's I'm guessing... even OEM makes a few bad ones.

I'll ship you a kit as soon as I see your reply.... your shipping address in this thread..... for comparison of course. You have the only cylinder from two years ago to make an honest comparison... to really see if they have improved.

I'm just fed up with the poor quality. If the suppliers want that image changed, quit shipping junk. How hard would it be to inspect them before they go out the door? They can't be shipping that many of them each day.

Many of the guys here have not had the opportunity to see what others of us have. I feel something of a responsibility to share what I've seen, with those who have not. I've been very frank with one of the suppliers of these kits. Nothing would make me happier than to see these kits be what they could be. There is huge potential here! I would go out of my way to help make that happen. I've done what I could, but am still so frustrated by what we see here. What can be done? I don't know. But, I'd hate to see someone spend good money and receive something that looks and performs like these.

Most guys just want a saw that runs good without any extra effort or cost. If they were perfect (aftermarket kits or OEM for that matter) you wouldn't have a porting business and neither would anybody else..... fact.

Should have called me.

Sincerely....
Frank

 

[w8ye]

I'm a hobbyist in another area where Far Eastern engines have taken over market share on price point alone.

They sometimes send out the poorest items you could imagine. QC and such things as ISO 9000/black belt are not part of their picture.

At one company, they try to rely on a high degree of automation for QC. The only quality control in that company is by the people that assemble the engines and the parts don't happen to fit. Luckily, and very unusual for China, this company does offer spare parts. But often they have machining defects for there is no QC on the spare parts.

Other labor saving tactics like as-cast bores before plating then honing with a ball hone that bounces across the ports, as cast bearing pockets, no fillet radii etc create ongoing problems.

There's no scrap or surplus. All product goes on down the line and out the door.

Manufacturing growth is so high in China that skilled or even reliable labor and employee turn over is a tremendous problem.

These companies are not concerned about their reputation as they will just change their name. They tend to think in terms of batches rather than continuous on-going production. Typical there is not complete interchangeability from one batch to the other.

The more successful companies doing long term business with consumers in the USA, closely conform to the ideal USA business model.

 

[watsonr]

Randy, you won't even sell them without working them over. Then another sponsor starts pushing them as is. It's just an ongoing problem with most all of these AM kits. I simply find the Meteor kits more dangerous, because most of us trust the brand. Coming from you after mods would be an exception. Obviously those would be fine. I'm simply not satisfied with what's coming out of the factory. That's all.

He works over every cylinder and so do you... so why aren't you attacking the OEM cylinders for better quality, they need improvement according to you and your business.

The real reason you brought this up...... Isn't there a rule about this???

 

[jus2fat]

I'm just fed up with the poor quality. If the suppliers want that image changed, quit shipping junk. How hard would it be to inspect them before they go out the door? They can't be shipping that many of them each day.

I totally agree with Brad's statement on Meteor needing a better inspection system in place - Trained inspectors..!!

I worked for an international company in the Quality Control (now) Quality Assurance Dept. for 18 years.
(we manufactured in four countries around the world)

You could use our product and if problems - ANY - you could get a free replacement or your $$ back..!!

Did we get 'burned' occasionally..sure we did - but a 1st and 2nd 'final' inspection really meant quality out the door..!!
(about 3-4 replacements or requests for their $$ back - We just wouldn't sell to that customer any more)

Sure...we occasionally sent some 'border-line' stuff out...but that's just business all manufactures do.

I read Brad as just saying quality should be better for a 'known' and 'trusted' manufacturer...
AND there should be a better inspection - to see that lesser quality items Don't get shipped..that' all..!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have read the whole thread - and I haven't as yet seen any pics of the New and Improved Meteor cylinders.

If they are better Now - Where's the pics so we can all SEE the improvements...until then this just a 'pissing-match'..!!

J2F

 

[thomas1]

...realize that I'm fighting for the good of the community.

This might be the funniest thing I've ever read on AS. Complete bull####, but funny. :cow:oop:

 

[watsonr]

I totally agree with Brad's statement on Meteor needing a better inspection system in place - Trained inspectors..!!

I worked for an international company in the Quality Control (now) Quality Assurance Dept. for 18 years.
(we manufactured in four countries around the world)

You could use our product and if problems - ANY - you could get a free replacement or your $$ back..!!

Did we get 'burned' occasionally..sure we did - but a 1st and 2nd 'final' inspection really meant quality out the door..!!
(about 3-4 replacements or requests for their $$ back - We just wouldn't sell to that customer any more)

Sure...we occasionally sent some 'border-line' stuff out...but that's just business all manufactures do.

J2F

YEP... I'm a supplier, not a manufacturer and I offer a 90 warranty.. even if you straight gas the thing, I'll send you a new one! My gripe is that he used an old product to report on..... not really fair.

 

[blsnelling]

Randy, this is good stuff. I'd be more than happy to review a kit for you. The only problem is that I have no stock cylinder here to compare it to. What I'm most interested in can be visually inspected and measured with a degree wheel. My 440 is currently wearing a Mahle 460 topend, which I would be more than willing to remove for this review.

Please do not take offense to this as I don't know you personally, but can you ensure that I don't recieve a hand picked kit? I hope you understand my request. Please don't take it personal.

My main concern with your replies is that you don't seem to really be owning the fact that there has been an ongoing problem with most all AM cylinder kits. Meteor is simply one of many. I've picked Meteor to pick on because of their reputation supplying top notch pistons. This would naturally lead us to think that the cylinders would be no different, at least it did me. Have we, or have we not had a serious ongoing problem with poor quality kits? I think the answer is clear, even today.

If you as a supplier are influencing this product in a significant way, then my hat's off to you and I applaud you for that. Other attemps have only been marginally successful. As much as the 066BB kits have improved, we still get reports of free porting and pistons hitting crowns. It drives me crazy to no end.

I will PM you my address. I see no reason to post it here in the open forum. That practice is ill advised.

 

[blsnelling]

He works over every cylinder and so do you... so why aren't you attacking the OEM cylinders for better quality, they need improvement according to you and your business.

The real reason you brought this up...... Isn't there a rule about this???

I have. I guess you didn't read that thread, but that's OK. Stihl cast cylinders aren't near what we used to expect from Mahle. I did a thread on that one as well. I'm no respector of persons or companies.

Are you seriously saying that AM kits are as good and consistent as OEM? If so, I think I'm fighting a lost cause here.

I really have no idea what you're talking about in your last statement.

 

[dingeryote]

(From Bailey's current flyer.)


Never discount the United States of America and her ways, my friend. We are the only dog in the fight.

If you keep reading that flyer ad, it's a limited production run here in the U.S., which sucks...they have to have a special sale and point it out.
The factory in Mexico must have had a fire or something.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

 

[Arbonaut]

If you keep reading that flyer ad, it's a limited production run here in the U.S., which sucks...they have to have a special sale and point it out.
The factory in Mexico must have had a fire or something.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

I think they changed over to sew flak jackets at the Mexican facility. Just a limited production run.