My beam's bent!

[pelhamjeff]

wow I cant believe that worked. Thanks, triptester. Anyway, my intent was to weld in the angel underneath the warped sections as a reinforcement. I do not plan to cut out the weak parts. Has anyone else had a simalar problem and addressed it like I'm considering doing?

 

[gink595]

Looks like the beam is twisting, I don't think an angle will keep from doing that, it might slow it down but it will do it again. It looks like from the pics you need to put in web stiffners and and weld it to the web and flanges to keep the beam from twisting. What is the flange width and beam depth?

 

[kevin j]

is the entire beam, viewed from the side, bending into an arc from the wedge/cylinder forces? Or, is the beam twisting along its long directiion, winding up. Or is just the flange itself bending up in local spots due to the twist applied from the slider?

the flanges look thin. I'd start with angles, heavy, as large as possible under the flange and out the to the sides as far as possible so the slider just still has some thin web to grip on. Or, add side plates, say 1/4 plate by height inside the flanges boxing it in and supporting the flanges. Turning an open seciton into a closed section dramatically reduces twist along the length of the beam.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

my intent was to weld in the angel underneath the warped sections as a reinforcement.

You want to weld in an angel?


How are you going to get it to hold still, and what kind of welding would hold an

anyway?







By the way, BMP is the worst possible photo format. Use JPG whenever possible. Makes a much smaller file, and is better quality.


As for the beam, what kind of angle do you mean? A length of angle iron? I think it would have to be some pretty stout stuff.

Might be better to get some plate and weld in a side plate on each side. Make that I beam into a box beam. Like so:

​

 

[mga]

why isn't the bottom bent as much as the top?

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

mga, your question made me look again. Changed my mind about it.

The problem is that beam is waaaay too thin for this work. The wedge is 'working' that top plate, not bending the whole beam. Yeah, there's SOME bend overall, but the biggest problem is that top plate. It's just too thin. With the way that wedge is mounted, my box beam suggestion won't work and to weld in some angle iron, you have to beat that plate back into shape. Lots of luck with that! Even if you do, and get some angle iron welded in there, the edges of the top plate will STILL be too thin.

I think it's time to scrap that beam and get something beefy enough to last a while. IMO, you could waste a lot of time and maybe money messing with that beam.

Start over, do it right.

 

[Crofter]

Is there a possibility that the slide is jamming and the cylinder force is attempting to roll up a section of the top flange. That is problem I have seen on relatively short slides. If the whole beam was bending from strain ,the web of the beam would be stretched at the top and you would not be hammering it back straight. If it is confined to distortion of the top flange my guess is it might be done by the slide locking.

 

[kevin j]

I think marks plates sketch will work the easiest. what I was describing, just move the blue plates inward an inch (or whatever) so the slider can still grab the edge. (did you use MS word, draw to add that? or from CAD? I use both, just don't know how to insert)

It will dramatically increase the stiffness in twist/torsion along the beam length because it is now a closed section. And if the edge is only cantilevered an inch out beyond teh support of the side plate, instead of 3 or 4 inches from the web, the bending from the slider pulling up on the edges will be much less.

Vertical gussets from top to bottom inside the flange won't do much of anything for torsion/twist. Might help the edge of the flange, but still may bend up down in between gussets. the top flange is thin.

Adding steel is much easier than cutting off brackets and replacing the beam. Try it first, if doesn't work, then replace the beam. You aren't out much material or time with the plates. Replacing the beam is a lot of cut and fit.

How is the cylinder mount braced? It appeared to be a vertical plate with a diagonal brace.

k

 

[triptester]

I repaired one for a friend he had a similar problem. We got a piece of steel 1/2" thick and a 1/2" narrower than the beam and welded it to the top of the beam. The reason for 1/2" narrower was to allow room for the weld so it would not get in the way of the slide. The slide had to be changed to fit the new thickness of the beam. The height of the push plate was also shortened.

What appears to be causing the problem in the pic is the wedge and push plate are both quite tall while the attaching point for the cylinder is low. The beam appears to be bending near the beginning of the stroke. This is the point where the most tonnage occurs splitting a large block . The sapwood on the outer edge splits easier than the heartwood. This applies greater resistance to the top of the push plate and when the cylinder is attached low on the push plate the added leverage causes the lip of the beam to bend.

 

[gink595]

(did you use MS word, draw to add that? or from CAD? I use both, just don't know how to insert)

I use print screen and than paste it into paint and than make a file, than you can insert an image, I do this in Auto CAD.

 

[mga]

mga, your question made me look again. Changed my mind about it.

The problem is that beam is waaaay too thin for this work. The wedge is 'working' that top plate, not bending the whole beam. Yeah, there's SOME bend overall, but the biggest problem is that top plate. It's just too thin. With the way that wedge is mounted, my box beam suggestion won't work and to weld in some angle iron, you have to beat that plate back into shape. Lots of luck with that! Even if you do, and get some angle iron welded in there, the edges of the top plate will STILL be too thin.

I think it's time to scrap that beam and get something beefy enough to last a while. IMO, you could waste a lot of time and maybe money messing with that beam.

Start over, do it right.

yea...i knew if i asked that question, someone would think about it.

when i saw the beam, it looked very thin, and since the bottom isn't bent, i thought the slide/pusher was forcing against it.

so, i concur with you: the culprit here seems to be a too thin beam.

 

[ray benson]

It would be nice if you could add a 1/2" plate to the top making it 3/4" thick. then improve the design of the push plate slides.
Here is your splitter - blew the pic up alittle.

 

[gink595]

I wouldn't scrap the beam especially at the cost of steel right now, I think you can reinforce it to perform fine. Here is what we do with reinforcment on overhead crane systems same concept as your deal. The one way is to weld a cee channel on top of the beam and stitch weld it underneath and add verticle stiffners and weld all availiable to contain the twisting of the flange or beam itself. This will strengthen the beam in tension and compression that it will experience. Or a 1/2" flat bar plate on top stich welded to the beam flange. Good luck in what ever you decide. I would price the mat'l for the repair and than price what a heavier beam would cost and than make your decision.

 

[mga]

nice drawing there, gink595.


however, i just noticed in the larger picture that the ram end attaches to the end of the slide. there appears to be several inches from that point to the end where it pushes the wood.

in my opinion, this is pushing up on the slide during the splitting mode, forcing the guide up, thereby bending the beam.

i'd change that so that the rod end is against the plate that is directly pushing against the wood.

 

[gink595]

nice drawing there, gink595.


however, i just noticed in the larger picture that the ram end attaches to the end of the slide. there appears to be several inches from that point to the end where it pushes the wood.

in my opinion, this is pushing up on the slide during the splitting mode, forcing the guide up, thereby bending the beam.

i'd change that so that the rod end is against the plate that is directly pushing against the wood.

Yes I see what your saying, It sure appears to be doing what you described, From the pic the beam appears to be a W8x18 beam, which is the same mat'l that alot of other manufactured splitters are. But the way the ram wedge is positioned and off center proably brings alot more stress to those flanges. It would be interesting to see a video of the machine in operation and see what exactley is happening.

 

[northcountry]

beam bend

Also as a side note.. in most likely-hood you have weakened the beam in that area from the repeated bending. once straight, make sure to torch it and the surrounding area close to red hot and cool relatively quickly with a mist of water. This will raise the rockwell hardness of the beam itself in that area and resist the bending from occurring. several heat-cool cycles will be required but it will make a huge difference. I also agree that adding an upper or lower plate of steel will be needed and 1/4" steel is simply not thick enough unless it is a cold roll steel beam (unlikely) I work steel quite a bit in my business and can form 1/4" plate steel up to 5" wide with simple hand bender tools and I am a wuss!!! it wont stand a chance against that ram if it binds up.

 

[gink595]

Also as a side note.. in most likely-hood you have weakened the beam in that area from the repeated bending. once straight, make sure to torch it and the surrounding area close to red hot and cool relatively quickly with a mist of water. This will raise the rockwell hardness of the beam itself in that area and resist the bending from occurring. several heat-cool cycles will be required but it will make a huge difference. I also agree that adding an upper or lower plate of steel will be needed and 1/4" steel is simply not thick enough unless it is a cold roll steel beam (unlikely) I work steel quite a bit in my business and can form 1/4" plate steel up to 5" wide with simple hand bender tools and I am a wuss!!! it wont stand a chance against that ram if it binds up.

Hardening is not always a desireable thing, In a condition such as this I would rather have a mild hardness. Better to bend than to break under high pressure, High temper means brittle, that would be the last thing you'd want with something that has as much pressure as a hyd splitter. I'm not sure what hand tools you are reffering to, but 1/4" is pretty thick and I'd like to watch someone bend a 90 with some hand brakes on cold 1/4" x5 flat bar.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

I think marks plates sketch will work the easiest. what I was describing, just move the blue plates inward an inch (or whatever) so the slider can still grab the edge. (did you use MS word, draw to add that? or from CAD? I use both, just don't know how to insert)

Excel, but the same idea. Just use the drawing tools, then make the borders all white. Leaving the cell borders in place while sketching gives me a grid for reference, both for size and squareness. Good enough for quick sketches. Quick, too. Don't have AutoCad - that's the Big Bucks!

Once I have the sketch, I use gink's method - print screen and paste it into an image editor, then save it as a file. It's a quick and dirty that serves the purpose.



Yeah, I think you guys are right. This is a combination of a too-thin beam and a too-tall pusher and wedge. Just too much leverage on that top plate.

Thicken the top plate and add the side plates for overall stiffness?

 

[gink595]

Excel, but the same idea. Just use the drawing tools, then make the borders all white. Leaving the cell borders in place while sketching gives me a grid for reference, both for size and squareness. Good enough for quick sketches. Quick, too. Don't have AutoCad - that's the Big Bucks!

Once I have the sketch, I use gink's method - print screen and paste it into an image editor, then save it as a file. It's a quick and dirty that serves the purpose.



Yeah, I think you guys are right. This is a combination of a too-thin beam and a too-tall pusher and wedge. Just too much leverage on that top plate.

Thicken the top plate and add the side plates for overall stiffness?

You guys and excel, I use excell programs alot at work, I can't do anything in that such as programing or simple mathematical equations. I wish I did, Excel seems to be a VERY powerful tool, capabilities are endless from what I've seen. Yeah Auto Cad is around 4-5 thousand a pop for a basic deal. There are some cheaper alternatives, if I knew how I'd send you a old version A-cad 2002.

 

[eric_271]

Also as a side note.. in most likely-hood you have weakened the beam in that area from the repeated bending. once straight, make sure to torch it and the surrounding area close to red hot and cool relatively quickly with a mist of water. This will raise the rockwell hardness of the beam itself in that area and resist the bending from occurring. several heat-cool cycles will be required but it will make a huge difference.

This is true if the carbon content was high enough to start with. If not no amount of heat treating is going to make the steel harder or stiffer. A certain amount of carbon had to be left in the steel or reintroduced for what you say to be true. Not all steel produced has enough carbon for heat treating to make a difference.