Need advice about tall pines close to house

[RogerLemelin]

I've lived on my wooded property (2 acres) for 30 years. The house is surrounded by very tall white pines. About 20-30 of them are within striking distance of the house. In 30 years, 7 trees have fallen. Three fell in one storm a week after I bought the property. Two fell within 10-15 feet of the house. Beginning a few years ago the frequency and intensity of wind storms increased a great deal. During several storms I've had to evacuate the property, and trees did fall on neighbors' houses during those storms.

I see two solutions at this point: Cut down the trees, or sell the house and move. I'm seriously considering moving because (a) the loss of the trees would detract greatly from the appearance of the property. They're quite beautiful . . . when the wind isn't blowing. (b) Getting the trees cut down, cleaning up, and restoring the land and lawn would be a huge project. To access the trees, heavy machinery would destroy a large portion of the yard.

What would you do in my place?

 

[EchoRomeoCharlie]

Yard is easily rebuilt, that's not really a concern. You can't really 'destroy' a lawn. You smooth it out, reseed it and boom, it's back.

Heavy wind generally comes from one general direction (west usually...) If the trees are on the north/south/east side of your house and not leaning towards the house, they're *probably* not going to land on the house in a windstorm. No guarantee of course, but you could probably remove the trees on the west side of the house and reduce the threat considerably while not removing all of the trees and detracting from the beauty of the property.

You could also potentially have the trees thinned. Not topped, don't top them, that will make it worse over time. If you have someone that knows what they're doing thin out the branches you can keep the natural beauty of the trees and reduce the amount of wind they catch dramatically reducing the potential for them to uproot or break off in a windstorm.

Those are a couple options I see other than just removing all of the trees or moving completely.

 

[ATpro]

've lived on my wooded property (2 acres) for 30 years. The house is surrounded by very tall white pines.

Remember, when removing some of the pines it may make the pines you leave more susceptible to wind damage. The pines act as a wind brake, removing some weaken the wind brake and allow more wind damage. We learned this lesson when thinning plantation pines.

 

[RogerLemelin]

EchoRomeoCharlie, thank you very much for your thorough reply. You've educated me about some things I didn't know. The wind definitely comes from the west here. I live at the top of a hill and I have the impression that the wind is sucked up out of the valley. As luck would have it, I live on the east side of a north/south street, and there are no pines in front of my house (the west side). They are on the other three sides. So I guess that's fortunate.

In a recent storm, we got 14" of very heavy, wet snow in addition to 40 mph winds. There was tree damage all over the state. I had to evacuate my house for two days. So snow is also an issue with these trees.

One question: If the trees face west (toward the sun), that means there are more branches on that side of the trees, as seen in the photo. Doesn't that mean that the tree is more likely to fall toward the west due to the weight of the branches?

 

[RogerLemelin]

Remember, when removing some of the pines it may make the pines you leave more susceptible to wind damage. The pines act as a wind brake, removing some weaken the wind brake and allow more wind damage. We learned this lesson when thinning plantation pines.

I agree with this. I also noticed when my nextdoor neighbors on both sides logged their properties that the water flow was significantly impacted on my property and my trees seemed to get waterlogged at the roots.

 

[ATpro]

Pine has a long tap root and makes it less chance of blow down than hard wood. A lot of times with pine that has been through something like a hurricane, strong wind and such the rocking back and forth will brake the tap rood and the pine will have a slow death.

 

[J D]

I agree with this. I also noticed when my nextdoor neighbors on both sides logged their properties that the water flow was significantly impacted on my property and my trees seemed to get waterlogged at the roots.

Wet feet can be pretty significant... I'd be looking to direct any run off away from the trees where possible, especially those closest to the house.
When trees fell previously were they outliers or amongst the main body? Which direction did they fall?
If the predominantly strong winds are from the west the trees will root themselves to brace against that, then it would be more likely that a freek strong wind from the east would do damage. In your case, if I've understood correctly that would mean the trees furthest from the house would be more likely to have issues.
As E.R.C. suggested, some thinning might be a good way to remove weight on the house side of those closest to it as well as reducing potential snow & wind load

 

[Seachaser]

I've lived on my wooded property (2 acres) for 30 years. The house is surrounded by very tall white pines. About 20-30 of them are within striking distance of the house. In 30 years, 7 trees have fallen. Three fell in one storm a week after I bought the property. Two fell within 10-15 feet of the house. Beginning a few years ago the frequency and intensity of wind storms increased a great deal. During several storms I've had to evacuate the property, and trees did fall on neighbors' houses during those storms.

I see two solutions at this point: Cut down the trees, or sell the house and move. I'm seriously considering moving because (a) the loss of the trees would detract greatly from the appearance of the property. They're quite beautiful . . . when the wind isn't blowing. (b) Getting the trees cut down, cleaning up, and restoring the land and lawn would be a huge project. To access the trees, heavy machinery would destroy a large portion of the yard.

What would you do in my place?

We cut all of ours down. 40+ year old pines. Ground the stumps. Planted something farther from the house. Two years later grass is greener and you can’t even tell it. We had about 30-40.

 

[RogerLemelin]

Wet feet can be pretty significant... I'd be looking to direct any run off away from the trees where possible, especially those closest to the house.
When trees fell previously were they outliers or amongst the main body? Which direction did they fall?
If the predominantly strong winds are from the west the trees will root themselves to brace against that, then it would be more likely that a freek strong wind from the east would do damage. In your case, if I've understood correctly that would mean the trees furthest from the house would be more likely to have issues.
As E.R.C. suggested, some thinning might be a good way to remove weight on the house side of those closest to it as well as reducing potential snow & wind load

Thank you very much for your input! Very helpful. I didn't want to make unproven accusations, but we're on a hill here so I think trees are needed to control the water flow. After my uphill neighbor logged his 10 acress, I noticed the water on my property increased and my trees began rotting at the roots and just toppling over. Not the big pines, fortunately. Yet.

Among the 7 trees that have fallen, the first three fell west to east during a microburst. One fell west to east, but not during a storm---it was rotten inside though it appeared healthy. A bull pine that fell was probably my fault---a huge branch (16" diameter) broke off and I failed to do anything about the wound so the tree rotted at that point over a period of 25 years. That one fell toward the house east to west, I think for the reason I mentioned above---the weight of the branches on the west side. Another was rotten and fell west to east during a storm. And #7 was also rotten and fell east to west. A pattern here is my failure to be aware of the health of each individual tree (there are about 200) and my financial means---the estimates to remove the bull pine were beyond my means at the time. (When it fell within 10 feet of the house, that corrected my attitude real fast, hence I'm taking this seriously.)

The wind is rarely, almost never from the east here. But I think the wind could come from the east during a hurricane as it rotates counterclockwise on the back edge of the storm. I guess all bets are off if there's a hurricane.

Regarding cleanup, let's not forget the stumps. When the bull pine was removed, there was significant damage to the land by the machinery, even though the guy tried to smooth things over. Getting the land regraded would be expensive. Also, the tree cutter's idea of "picking up all the branches" is quite different from mine, and it took me a good month to clean up after removal of a single (huge) tree. There would also be damage to things that add value to the landscaping, like flower gardens and shrubs.

 

[RogerLemelin]

We cut all of ours down. 40+ year old pines. Ground the stumps. Planted something farther from the house. Two years later grass is greener and you can’t even tell it. We had about 30-40.

Can I ask how much all that cost you? And what region of the country to compare prices?

 

[industrialsized]

Common practice would be "wind thinning", "wind sail reduction", "wind lacing", or "spiral pruning".

Windsail reduction is stripping out the inner canopy foliage, aka lion-tailing. Usually this is by climbing up the trunk and cutting what can be reached.
I believe that this is also the same as wind thinning and lacing.

Spiral pruning involves full branch removal in a spiral up the tree.

This allows the air to "blow through the 'sail'" to prevent trees from breaking or uprooting.

Done every 5 years or so has proven to significantly reduce any hazard to nearby structure.

Get a good(reputable) arborist out to your property to have a chat, no need to move or worry.

 

[RogerLemelin]

Common practice would be "wind thinning", "wind sail reduction", "wind lacing", or "spiral pruning". . . . Done every 5 years or so has proven to significantly reduce any hazard to nearby structure.

Get a good arborist out to your property to have a chat, no need to move or worry.

I'm surprised at the number of people who recommend thinning. I never even heard of this. Thanks for that information.

I've had several arborists on my property over the years. Most said, "You're worrying too much." One said, "You should remove everything within striking distance of the house." One said, about the bull pine mentioned above, "Don't worry, this tree has broad roots. It will still be standing 10 years from now." He was wrong---it fell 5 years later. I think I should figure out what a real arborist is, as opposed to "a guy who cuts down trees and sells them," and get a new assessment.

My theory is, it's 100% certain that these trees will fall. It's just a question of will they fall while I own the house or the next owner? With the mass of branches on the west side behind the house, it feels like Russian roulette to not get rid of them. During major windstorms, my house no longer provides shelter. I have to seek shelter elsewhere from my own property. There's something wrong with that picture.

 

[ATpro]

After looking at the picture of your house I would cut ever one of your danger trees. maybe replace them with hardwoods.

 

[RogerLemelin]

After looking at the picture of your house I would cut ever one of your danger trees. maybe replace them with hardwoods.

That's my sense too, but it comes from having had to sleep in the (partially below ground, unheated) garage several times during winds of 40 to 80 mph, or evacuate to a motel. I'm trying to listen to rational, experienced people to counterbalance my emotional feeling about these trees.

Regarding wind speed, I suspect that when the weatherman says there is going to be 40 mph winds in my town, the wind speed is higher at my house due to its location on a hill. I take forecasted 40 mph very seriously.

 

[ATpro]

I'm surprised at the number of people who recommend thinning. I never even heard of this. Thanks for that information.

Down South here those trees would have to go because of all the things that can affect pines.

 

[oldbuzzard]

Just some anecdotal info for similar events in Colorado. I am retired and do volunteer sawyer work, I’m USFS certified both chainsaw and crosscut. Out here there are two big natural disaster concerns - wildfire AND windstorms. Insurance companies are drastically raising rates and starting to demand homeowners do mitigation around their homes. What is tough is many of the homeowners we are trying to help are older, have limited financial resources, and are living in homes totally surrounded by trees and other vegetation. We volunteers don’t do arborist work, we just free drop trees and maybe occasionally use ropes and Maasdam pullers. Many of these homeowners will probably have to give up there homes, in some cases property the family has owned for generations. Furthermore these properties may loose much of their value.

 

[RogerLemelin]

Insurance companies are drastically raising rates and starting to demand homeowners do mitigation around their homes. . . . . Some of these homeowners will probably have to give up there homes, in some cases property the family has owned for generations. Furthermore these properties may loose much of their value.

This is sobering, and I see this happening on my own property. When I bought my house 30 years ago, one of the main attractions for me was the beautiful pine trees. They were a selling point back then. I believe that cutting all of them would lower the sales price of the house because I would have a house in the middle of an empty, unlandscaped space. On the other hand, cutting the trees now would be a financial hardship and it would reduce the funds I have to invest in a new house.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Sheesh, what a dilemma.
Those trees are gigantic!
Just my unprofessional tree-hugger opinion here, from what you said about your neighbor uphill clearcutting their trees, which appears to be allowing more water to come down to your property, it sounds like your trees are suffering from soggy roots.
When the trees came down in your yard, were they uprooted, or broken off?
We get a lot of severe wind storms here, and if the ground is saturated, the trees will uproot.

 

[RogerLemelin]

TNTreeHugger, what I recall is that the trees rotted and broke off just below the surface, maybe a foot or two down. I had to have a huge maple removed because it rotted from the bottom of the trunk up. Its roots were standing in water much of the time. There are streams all along the hillside here, so a lot of water already. The neighbor on on the other side of me also logged two acres, and he now has extreme erosion on his property. Because of course we've also had severe rainstorms and flooding in the Northeast in the past year---Montpellier Vermont, for example.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

TNTreeHugger, what I recall is that the trees rotted and broke off just below the surface, maybe a foot or two down. I had to have a huge maple removed because it rotted from the bottom of the trunk up. Its roots were standing in water much of the time. There are streams all along the hillside here, so a lot of water already. The neighbor on on the other side of me also logged two acres, and he now has extreme erosion on his property. Because of course we've also had severe rainstorms and flooding in the Northeast in the past year---Montpellier Vermont, for example.

I hate to say it, but it sounds like a lost cause.
Is it possible the severe erosion on your neighbors property could cause damage to the home's foundation?
When your neighbors logged their trees, did they pay, or get paid for the timber?