need advice

[treeman82]

First off, I am sorry if I get a bit long winded about this.

Ok; I have a "client" who I have been working for, for going on 4 years now. All I do for them is tree work. I got the account through the brothers / sons. The guy who I work for (Luigi) used to own a lawn mower shop, but he got greedy and lost everything... had to sell the business to the 2 sons who have grown it a LOT, and today it is a large business. I started working for this guy through the two sons who own the mower shop. Now I like working for this guy, and the food his wife makes for me is out of this world, and he does get me a job once every other year or so However he never has any money to pay me. Sure he will take care of some of my labor expenses, but never for gas, or my time, etc. Each time I go to work for him I go above and beyond what I am asked to do, and what we have agreed on. Each time I do it, I don't give them any troubles, because I know that they have very little money.

Now if you will remember from before, I said that they lost everything, business, house, various real estate, etc. So now they live with their daughter and son in law. The son in law owns the house. Now if I had a ton of money, I would keep on working for these people for little to no money, and just take food. But ya know what? I don't have a ton of money. Over the past year and change, the son in law has put a large addition onto his house, he just bought a 66 Cobra which needs minor work and will be good as new. He also is starting to put up a large garage, which he needs me to cut about 5 trees for so that there is room.
2 of the trees are large, 1 of which is a NASTY locust (3' - 4' in diameter, goes up over the barn, everything has to be butt hitched because we removed 2 other trees I could have rigged it out of about 2 years ago.) The other large one is a green ash which can be pretty much bombed, but it is still about 4' DBH. Once these 5 trees are down, that will bring me up to about 40 trees I have cut down for them since I started there. Also last summer they rented an RG50 and I ground out about 30 stumps for them one afternoon. I have chipped up a bunch of brush for them, and have moved most of the wood from these trees, except for some logs which they moved themselves, and a few trees which we dropped in the woods. The trees I have removed for them so far range in diameter from ~ 1' DBH - ~ 3' DBH

I have a couple of things that I want and need and would like to ask them to procure these things for me. I would like to know from you guys if I am sounding unreasonable about this. BTW, they have given me MAYBE $700 for the work I have done to date, as well as a brand new HT75, and some other minor stuff (wedges, etc)

What I want is this:

1) My bill with the sons to be cleared, which was supposed to have been taken care of back in 2001 ($120.00)
2) 1. 120' section of Hi-Vee climbing line 1. 150' section of Hi-Vee climbing line (~190.00)
3) 28" bar and chain for my 066 magnum which I bought from him in 2000 ($~100.00)
4) MS200 climbing saw w/ 16" bar (~$480.00)
5) MS260 Pro w/ 18" or 20" bar & chain (~450.00) - because my 029 was "liberated" last fall.

So what do you all think? Am I insane? Am I being reasonable? Should I be taken out into a field and put out of my missery?

 

[Newfie]

Come work for me for a while! I'll cook some really nice food and pretend to be really poor.

 

[treeman82]

Mike, I wish I could say that this guy was pretending to be poor, but I have talked to people who know the situation well, and they have vouched for the fact that he is poor.

 

[Newfie]

The son-in-law sounds flush. I wish I could throw around money like that.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

What have you gotten out of the job so far? Sounds like you got your work out. It seems that maybe a membership at the gym might be cheaper.

If you want to work for free but learn something at work, come out to Minneapolis. At the end of the day you'll have learned something. My cooking is only adequate, not great though.

Tom

 

[treeman82]

I dunno Tom, food wise you are competing with a little old Italian lady who came over from the old country... :angel:

I should have clarrified this though, and I don't think I did. I work for the father, the son-in-law may want to get stuff done, but the father is the one I have to deal with for $ or what not. I have not ONCE recieved money from the son-in-law. Always go to the father to get paid and make the "deals" These people are good people to know, I mean a reference from them is a good thing. But financially I just can't do it anymore.

 

[geofore]

will work for food?

So tell the old man what you want or need to do the jobs. A fair and honest man will take care of it a greedy man will not. When you do work barter for what you want first, before you start up the saws. Tell the old man what it costs you to do the work and let him know you cannot do it for free any longer, some one has to pay the wear and tear on you and the equipment. If it means you need rope or a new saw tell him that is what it will take for you to do the job. Don't get greedy but do be firm about what you need costwise to do the work. There should be an understanding prior to starting the work but if you don't speak up he'll never know what you need to do the work and you will not walk away feeling you were taken advantage of. Unless you speak out nothing will change. You would not ask if you did not want a change so find you backbone and ask for what you want.

 

[treeman82]

Thanx Geo- I am gonna pay them a visit on Saturday and talk with them about what I want and need. If they can't help me out, then I am afraid I won't be able to help them out.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

What Geo said. I would expalin that doing small jobs would not be a problem still, but for something that is so involved as removals, I need money.

Something along the lines that you will not charge top rate to friends, but need som sort of minimum per day expence beyond operating costs. This is a real buisness for you now, maybe you can work the jobs as a commision for new work he finds you.

I could work for a lot of buddies for small change, but I would would be marking time form a personal financial standpoint.

 

[treeman82]

So it doesn't sound un-ethical for me to start charging them a more appropriate rate, as opposed to the EXTREMELY low rate they were giving me before when they didn't have any money?

 

[mikecross23]

Charity work is what I call all the family and friends that need "just one little tree" to be removed. I do as little charity work as possible! My body is a tool, and just like any other tool it's going to wear out one day so I need a rental fee for it. I will work for my Grandmother or my mother and my best friend (who I will never be able to repay his help to me), but anyone else takes a number and we come to some sort of agreement before initiating any actual work. Last week I removed 3 very small sweet gums in exchange for a washer and dryer from a close friend. He didn't have the money to pay for the removing of his trees, but I needed a dryer and could sell the washer. That worked out well and everyone is happy.

Tell them what you are worth (or willing to work for) and if they don't like it, then maybe they aren't worth your time or maybe they are not as respectable as you may have originally thought.
(I don't know every detail, so please don't be offended if they really are worth your time)

If it were me, I would take my losses for work completed in the past where no real price agreement was had, but I would from now on define my rate for chargeable work and explain what I might do as charity work.

Good luck,
-Mike-

P.S. I'm out for the weekend! Headed to DA-BEACH!!!!

 

[Tom Dunlap]

So now they live with their daughter and son in
law. The son in law owns the house.

Give more info. Sounds like you're working "for" Dad but working "at" the son in laws house. Who benefits from the work you do? If the son in law does, he should pony up.

My offer still stands

Tom

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Fix the fridge and throw in a bed and i might take you up on the offer Tom

 

[treeman82]

Tom, I think you pretty much have the jist of it. The son-in-law says what has to be done. I confer with the father, make the "deal" with the father. Do the work which the son-in-law benefits from, and get remuneration from the father. I am going to write them a nice letter right now to both the son-in-law and father, and drop it off on the way to a job in the morning.

If you are willing to throw in a bed with the free food, I might take you up on your offer

 

[Stumper]

82, Here is my 2 cents.
Don't write them a letter! Go talk to them. Man to man. Face to face. Like others here I don't think that you should "charge" for past work if there wasn't an agreement in place. -If there was then they need to honor any and all agreements. But you definitely should lay things out for all future dealings. Be calm. Be courteous. Be firm! If they are honorable people they'll understand and feel guilty about abusing you. If they react by getting angry and nasty (while you have been calm and courteous) then they deserve no more of your time.

 

[treeman82]

Alright, here is a copy of the letter I am sending them come morning time.

Stumper, these people can be really nice, however they have also caused their own family members to have nervous break-downs. I am hoping that with a letter, it will get their attention better, because I also tend to not do so well with face to face confrontations having to do with money and other business dealings other than just selling, less $ figures. Unfortunately when I am face to face with somebody, I will usually cave in a situation which I could easily anticipate with these people.

 

[treeman82]

HL Tree Turf & Landscape, Inc.
[email protected]
115 Stonewall Court
Yorktown Heights, NY 10598

Luigi and Mark-

Since the summer of 2000 I have been working for your family doing tree work around the house. I have enjoyed working for you, even though there was not much money involved. However, my current financial situation does not lend itself to me at this time to continue working for free.

With that in mind, Mark has informed me that 5 trees need to come down around the driveway and barn to make room for the new garage, and also to eliminate a prior existing hazard tree. Those 5 trees consist of; (3) Sugar maples, (1) green ash, and (1) yellow locust. I am more than willing to remove these 5 trees for you, however in return for this work I require; (1) Stihl 260 pro w/ 20” bar (1) Stihl MS200 w/ 16” bar (1) 28” bar and chain combination for a 2000 Stihl 066 Magnum (1) 370 foot section of New England Hi-Vee climbing line (1) bill for ~$120 with Ossining Lawn Mower, under my company’s name to be settled (5) Petzl ball lock carabiners

For those items, I shall cut the 5 trees to ground level, dragging all the brush to the woods like I normally do. I shall also cut the logs from the trees into ~6’ lengths and stack them as close as I can to their stumps so that they can be moved by John’s machine at a later date in time.

Please keep in mind that at the current time I am asking clients for $50 per man-hour, and I anticipate for this work to take no less than 3 man-days.

If you agree to this proposal, please have the, afore mentioned items at the house by no later than Thursday morning. I shall start the work on either Thursday, or Friday bringing at least 1 other person with me at all times.

Thank you for your attention in this matter.

Sincerely,


Matthew Lang (President, “HL Tree Turf & Landscape, Inc.”)

 

[treeman82]

I can do all of the work in 1 day with me and 2 guys if I can get a 4:1 going on the locust.

 

[Joe]

Eliminate the 1st paragraph. Save that argument when your proposal isn't accepted and use it when negotiating your bid. Include the price of the items requested and possibly point out the potential benefits of the barter.

Develop self confidence when dealing with the people for which you do business. Tact can be learned and mistakes should be expected. Learn from mistakes, don't be too afraid to make them.

The type of relationship you developed with these people should probably not be breached with demands. These people could continue to be a healthy alliance for you and a lifetime reference. If compensation for work is needed, ask in a way that you are showing them you need their help. "I want to start a tree business. You know I've been going to school for this and you know I can do the work. Will you help me get started? I'll do this amount of work for this equipment which will allow me to start selling my skills and get my business started." Use the quote as a reference to start thinking about getting your equipment through negotiation from a different angle. Alternative suggestions by the friends from such a request should be expected and thought through as thoroughly as possible.

A couple days with Tom D. would be an invaluable experience that will probably boost your skill level which can last the rest of your career. Don't pass on such an opportunity if the time is available to take advantage of it. Think about it, years and years of experience learned in days.

Joe

...about advice; fools don't take it, wise men don't need it.

 

[treeman82]

I delivered the letter this morning, if I get the job, that's great, if not, it's just as well.

Joe- I have bartered with this family SEVERAL times in the past. They are all familiar with the cost of the equipment I am asking for, because they sell it each and every day.

I wrote this letter to prevent myself from making this mistake, AGAIN. You can't fight with a piece of paper.

While these people are a good reference, they will be dead in the next couple of years.

I had gone to them last year after my 020T crapped the bed on a job at their house, oddly enough. So I went to them and asked for a new MS200, because I wasn't getting anywhere near what the job was worth, and I was hoping they could help me. "Oh, we have no money, sorry." Obviously that is not the case.

I had made a deal with the father back in the fall of 2001, that I would fell a bunch of small trees on some land he bought, and in return he would clear my bill with his sons. Well, I did the work (wound up being he had me work someplace he didn't own ) and he never paid up. I finally got him to match the money I gave his sons towards the bill.