Need schooled in the right way to drop trees for logs

Wesspur
Rugged made
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I spoke with my buyer last week and got an idea what he wants I am meeting with him this week to look at what he wants since in my own statement I want first hand look at it.

I have an 80 hp tracked skid steer to load with and a 60 hp tractor for skidding. The largest of these trees is only around 24 in across.. While not light I will just have to buck them to a length I can handle. I have side ramps for 2 of the trailers where I can pull or push a log up the ramp onto the trailer. The track skid steer has a tipping capacity of 6k I have moved 4500 lb loads with it onto those trailers, but we will just have to see. I agree I could loose a lot of money skidding.
 
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slowp said:
This is a most excellent book on log scaling. I have an ancient hard copy that we were required to get for school. It is the Idaho Log Scaling Manual. I am glad to see it is now on line.

http://www.ibsp.idaho.gov/IdahoLogScalingManual-2008 Edition (print).pdf
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Patty this is the best scribner info I've seen, thanks for posting it! Best in detail and clarity. I learned using Bell and Dillworth and the Grays Harbor Bureau Rules (same as most in the Northwest.) Both don't have as nice of illustrations as the IDL one you posted, even though the rules are the same, and there appears to be a little more detail taboot. Very cool!

Wes
 
OlympicYJ said:
Patty this is the best scribner info I've seen, thanks for posting it! Best in detail and clarity. I learned using Bell and Dillworth and the Grays Harbor Bureau Rules (same as most in the Northwest.) Both don't have as nice of illustrations as the IDL one you posted, even though the rules are the same, and there appears to be a little more detail taboot. Very cool!

Wes
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Our forestry instructor at the discount college I went to said to hang onto their book. He said it was the best one for scaling. I've still got mine. It went out of print for a while. Now it seems to be back, in electronic form. Thank you Idaho!
 
madhatte said:
Bell & Dilworth is my go-to. This Idaho book is pretty good, too. Thanks for that. I'll pass it around, see how many B&D-loyal I can shake up. The Kim Iles inventory book id pretty excellent, too.
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While not scaling but my Forest Sampling methods class starts tomarrow. B & D is one of the books recommended. Already have it but also the F.S. Elementary Forest Sampling handbook and the tried and true McGraw Hill's, Forest Mensuration, another one I have. The Elementary Forest Sampling handbook is out of print but being made available in PDF. It's sad no one makes a comprehensive series any more.
 
Rio_Grande said:
I spoke with my buyer last week and got an idea what he wants I am meeting with him this week to look at what he wants since in my own statement I want first hand look at it.

I have an 80 hp tracked skid steer to load with and a 60 hp tractor for skidding. The largest of these trees is only around 24 in across.. While not light I will just have to buck them to a length I can handle. I have side ramps for 2 of the trailers where I can pull or push a log up the ramp onto the trailer. The track skid steer has a tipping capacity of 6k I have moved 4500 lb loads with it onto those trailers, but we will just have to see. I agree I could loose a lot of money skidding.
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I load log trucks with an 81 hp Mustang MTL20 which is the same as a Takeuchi 140. You will be able to lift butt logs that are 16' long with DBH of 24", so you will be just fine in that department, shouldn't be any loading logs.

If you have a field or room to land the logs, just pull the limbed logs out and leave about 2 feet or tractor width apart and when you fill your landing have the log buyer come Paint-mark the logs where he wants them cut, buck them and deliver. That said, marking logs to his choosen lengths will not be a problem just work the lengths to fit the bends in the tree. I'm just worried about the grade logs or heaven forbid the veneer logs and you screw one of those up. My timber buyer always says his money is made in the marking of the logs when it comes to grade and veneer.

Depending on the length of the trees and the terrain that 60 hp tractor might need some of the butt logs cut off before skidding out the tree. Get a 50' (not a 100') log tape, Bailey's or Madsen's has them for cheap enough. Clip this to the cutters belt and soon you will know what trees will need to be cut in two and which ones the tractor can skid out in full length. Rig something on the Three Point hitch so you can chain the log and lift it up with the three point so you aren't dragging the whole tree.

Do you have metal stakes on your trailers? Don't trust the logs to just sit there while someone straps them up. That will end in someone's death. Make some decent metal stakes, it won't take very long and it will save a lot of loading time and safety issues, more than the time and expense to make them.

As far as scaling the logs you can just get a scale stick in Doyle from Log Rite or use a tape measure on the small end and record them to input the computer later, there are some conversion charts or programs on line that will give you the footage for each diameter and length.

Below is a running thread of mine that has a lot of photos and videos of midwest logging in it. It might give you a some visuals, if you have questions just ask.

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/147985.htm

Hope it helps,

Sam
 
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madhatte said:
Are you at GRCC? If so, COME WORK FOR US next summer.

See if you can find Iles' book. It's fantastic.

EDIT: This one.
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Nope over at the U of I. I went through Grays Harbor College's program. I didn't have to do Mensuration here in Idaho, but went to one of their labs and it was a joke. Definitely glad I went to tech school so I actually have a clue of what to do in the field. I'll have to check it out. There were a few others and in class today they said there's one they'd like us to have but its $250 and don't expect us to pay that much lol
 
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OlympicYJ said:
Tess?

Are you coming over for the National Convention this week?
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Yep -- she worked with us in '09. Pretty sure at least 2 other past members of our crew are there now as well. Wait; one may be in Missoula. Not sure.

I won't be making this convention because of prior obligations. Ah, well, there's always next year.
 
madhatte said:
Yep -- she worked with us in '09. Pretty sure at least 2 other past members of our crew are there now as well. Wait; one may be in Missoula. Not sure.

I won't be making this convention because of prior obligations. Ah, well, there's always next year.
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Ah ten4. there are lots of Westside folks over here. Too bad, have to have a beer some time when I'm home. I'm not too far from Oly lol
 
Rio_Grande said:
Thanks Sam I have a CTL 70 which is the same as a MTL 20 same parts manual and all. Love that machine.
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Yep, they are tough. The only thing that has failed me, was I broke one of the drive motor hydro lines. My son was running it and for some reason one of the hydro hoses just blew a hole. It took about 1.5 hours to take it off, drive to get a new one and oil and re-install a new, because you only have to take one little cover off.

I got 2700 hours on the original tracks and undercarriage, but they were completely shot when I replaced them all, LOL.

I've picked up 20 foot long 18" diameter logs and loaded them onto log trailers. If you can get them up against the log bunks/verticals you can help them up by pushing them with the tracks.

Bear in mind that loading logs with a skid loader is very dangerous work, much more so than with a wheel loader, because the operator is under the logs.

I started out with 4' long pallet forks, but have found that 5' long ones are much better for picking up the top cuts and you can "throw" the logs higher and farther when piling them up with 5' forks.


Sam
 
Mine had 1200 hours on it when I bought it and new tracks. I was missing a little plate in the back that protects a water drain. Well a stick took the drain out. I also ripped the remotes off of it when I tried to tilt a mower with short lines on it to far. That was a couple hundred dollar repair. But in all I cant complain. I have a graple that will handle a 36 inch log, bigger and I have to use pallet forks. I used it for last couple years to load scrap Iron I am amazed what this thing will do.

It runs a mower most of the time now although there isint much business at the moment.

Thanks for the info. The log buyer said he would come out and mark the logs before we cut them. but i have to get them on the ground and pulled out. I am trying to come up with a way to skid with the CTL, the tractor isint really set up for the woods although we use it to gather fire wood this one has alot of staubs and brush. I ran the brush cutter through there the other day. we will see.
 
On skidding with the CTL ............... I have done this at my house...... not while actually making money, so take it for what its worth. I skid a bunch of firewood logs out of my hills and the neighbor's hills, by spiking the butt end of the log with either the left or right inner "tong" of the grapple bucket, then I would sit backwards on the step plate between the arms of the machine and lower the lap bar (not smart, I know) and I got to where I could skid with the MTL20 in 2nd gear going backwards just as fast as you can drive going forwards, and it worked pretty good in wet ground, because of the low 3.7 ground PSI. You have to check your grab on the log every now and then, but it will pivot just fine with that one tooth stab using either of the inner tongs.

Nothing will beat a grapple skidder though, that is a machine designed for the job. Logging has wrecked a lot of people, you might find one to rent or have a guy come and pay him to skid for you. It does take some talent and skill to get trees out and do it skillfully, but you wouldn't know what you are getting until after the job is halfway done.

Do you have a tree count, a guestimate of the amount of trees you have to cut? 60, 100, 200 or acres of them?

For the buyer to come in and mark the logs just drop them in a nice straight line with some walking distance between them so he can see both sides of it. Fill up your landing and let him know 6-12 hours before its going to be filled up so he can come out and mark the logs with you. Help him mark the logs, that will be the most you will learn about trees and timber right there. It will take several of these lessons, but after awhile you will start to see the logs in the trees before you cut them down, and then you won't have to drag dumb waste wood out, just to cut it off and push it to the side at the landing. Make your log "right" in the woods when you are limbing and topping the tree.

If you have grade or veneer trees, maybe he will show you what to look for in the bark and grain of the logs and the small and big ends. Its not hard, my kids can read logs, but if you have never done it, well then you have never done it and you won't know.

Sam
 
Sam
Thanks for the replies.

I haven't ever graded logs. I have a lot to learn.

There are 4 acres of trees, not all of them go but it will be crowded getting them out. We are starting on Monday and he added several 24+ inch oaks. I have a line on a cutter who is out of work. He supposedly can grade and drop trees. I am thinking about talking to him and seeing if he seems competent. Like I would know. I am not as worried about putting them on the ground as I am getting them graded and cut to the proper length. Loading will be a challenge but I think it too will go fine. If he can come in ground them and buck them in a couple days it will be worth it to me then I can concentrate on hauling.
 
Rio_Grande said:
Sam
Thanks for the replies.

I haven't ever graded logs. I have a lot to learn.

There are 4 acres of trees, not all of them go but it will be crowded getting them out. We are starting on Monday and he added several 24+ inch oaks. I have a line on a cutter who is out of work. He supposedly can grade and drop trees. I am thinking about talking to him and seeing if he seems competent. Like I would know. I am not as worried about putting them on the ground as I am getting them graded and cut to the proper length. Loading will be a challenge but I think it too will go fine. If he can come in ground them and buck them in a couple days it will be worth it to me then I can concentrate on hauling.
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There isn't any reason to worry about grading or cutting to proper length, because the log buyer is going to grade and mark them for you. Just be there and learn from him when he does it.

Ask him what is the smallest diameter he will take, if its tie logs then it will be 10"-12", so if you have a straight 8'6" and the small end is 10"-12" then top it there. Cut all limbs and knots off. to that point. Some guys will take forks and some won't just depends on the mill, generally you don't want to send logs in with portions of the forks in them.

In general, for this midwest area with decent timber on it, you can figure about 3,000 bdft (very variable number) per acre. I'm guessing that you aren't going to be at that average but you might. So tops you have 12,000 bdft there, that is a long day or two days of work to turn trees into a pile of cut logs with normal logging machines and a decent cutter.

Most cut and skid contract loggers will do that for about $90-130/MBF usually around $100. So there is only about $1,200 worth of work there

Sam
 
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